Enemy building in your system

[naisel]

Question:

Could you use a declaration of war to colonize planets in enemy space? (during wartime)

Interesting question, I'd like to know it too.

 

[kalauer]

Time and attention. If you're paying attention to my construction ships, you're not paying attention to another front. Or even to your production.

As stated before, imagine the enemy does the same Thing. The war would degrade to a clicking contest in who is faster in sending construction ships and small fleets where. If you are looking for that, it is starcraft time, not Grand strategy.

If it was an insignificant enemy presence then you wouldn't feel compelled to react to it. The threat behind the construction ship (ambushing small forces you send to deal with it or just letting me have unrestricted access to your space with my new stations) is a real one. Just because there aren't military ships there, does not mean there isn't a significant threat.

The only reason a reaction is forced is the rule challenged by me. Other than that, this is no significant presence. So I feel that this Argument is a circular one.

Hardly. Logistics win wars just as much as guns and ships do. Stopping the enemy from establishing supply, communication and travel lines is important. Belgium absolutely made efforts to blow up train tracks to hinder Germany in WW1.

But the belgians did not set up supply camps in Potsdam or Dresden. Just as the Germans did not set them up behind enemy lines. You first achieve control over an area, then you establish supply routes in the area (yes, granted, you also may and should do this simultaneously). Not the other way around.

It's a gambit. "React or deal with my new found increased range and speed."

It is no Gambit if there is nothing or not much at stake for the side offering it. it would be if the wormhole-side had to committ a sizeable force from the beginning.

Simple. Once the reinforcements that the defender sends become significant enough to weaken another front, the Wormhole Faction can hit the newly weakened front that'll take too long to get reinforced. The WH Faction commits some construction ships and having some Wormhole stations ready to send ambushing forces and in exchange, it forces the opponent to move. Once he moves, the WH Faction gains new avenues in the war. Divide and Conquer, a war staple.

I am sorry, but "divide and conquer" is seriously a different Thing. But on game Terms, you assume that you could achieve local superiority by this? Even if we assume an equal Opponent, all you will achieve is that the enemy has to tend to small size- Engagements instead of combat between the main fighting force. So skirmishing around a Little, fine by me. Test the enemy, maybe get to know his tactics and Equipment, all very justified and reasonable. But you can do this with parts of your fleet, raiding his mining stations to Lure hm out, besiege weak planets et. why use construction ships to set that up?

I beleive you only want to cause a lot of Trouble to the enemy without commitment on your side. And if this Trouble would be represented in game Terms (resources, destroyed ships ..), I would not blame you. But doing this solely on the Level of annoying the enemy is no strategy, it is cheesy. And it is good you described it so noone can say we did not know beforehand this would be done.

That's a different strategy altogether and one that'll be more useful against Hyperlanes. The one I outlined is more apt to deal with Warp..

Yes, it was a side track, but still interesting and also related to being able to build in enemy territory.

What you need to realize here is that you have this concept that Wars should always be defined by clashing of Fleets and the Empire with the best fleet, wins. There should be space for the Empire with superior logistics and speed to create advantageous situations so that he can overcome a stronger, slower fleet and this strategy is one of them.

Logistics are not modeled in Stellaris, so there is no side with superior logistics. What you call logistics is the FTL-infrastructure a wormhole-empire can have. And the benefits of wormhole-travel still apply: near-instant movement, (most likely) higher range for single jumps, Little to no warning for the enemy. You do not have to rely on so called strategies, that depend on the enemy being annoyed too much to care, to use them.
And as I stated above, raiding/skirmishing is not ruled out by this. Just this very instance of causing Trouble with Little or no effort. You may still use this very strategy of yours, but you'd have to bring a significant force (I argued 15%, of the enemy*s strength, but this is obviously issue to balancing) with you. Does this render your strategy invalid?

 

[CocoCincinnati]

I think the key is "at war". Another empire shouldn't be able to build anything in your territory while at peace without your permission. But once war is declared they should be able to build worm hole stations or science stations or defense stations or whatever else they feel comfortable putting their construction ships at risk to build. The only problem I can see is that It might become a balance issue if those stations are built too quickly, it should take months or even longer to build a proper space station and I don't remember it taking that long in the Blorg stream.

 

[kalauer]

I think the key is "at war". Another empire shouldn't be able to build anything in your territory while at peace without your permission. But once war is declared they should be able to build worm hole stations or science stations or defense stations or whatever else they feel comfortable putting their construction ships at risk to build. The only problem I can see is that It might become a balance issue if those stations are built too quickly, it should take months or even longer to build a proper space station and I don't remember it taking that long in the Blorg stream.

I believe you refer to my original post and I don't blame you, it has become a Long thread to read.

We have been a Long way since then and my current stance is that, to avoid having to Micro-chase the construction ships, it should be established that while one may build in enemy territory, one should require to have significant fleet presence there to protect the construction ship. So the Defender is not swarmed with construction ships that he'd have to hunt down by Hand but at most a few larger chunks of the enemy fleet that are rewarding to fight against.

 

[Chrysaetos]

Guess our quarrel lies in you not wanting to micro fleets. I have no issue with it and hope it remains.

 

[Twogs]

Wouldn't the easiest way to block enemies from building stuff inside your realm (and also even stop them from raiding with a small group) by building a defense station with a snare in every system? Yeah probably a bit expensive, but it would get the job done

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

I also have no direct problem with micromanagement since I only play with single player. There are no problem for me to pause the game and give orders and look around the map for potential targets and/or problems.

The major issues with building a station in enemy space is that it will become necessary to defend it so I will tie up a considerable number of forces to that end.

This might be doable if I'm the one on the offensive and who has the stronger fleet.

If I don't have a stronger fleet this is a very risky strategy since I just gave the enemy an easy static target to engage and destroy.

 

[Kyle Lionheart]

An (apparently) easy target to engage and destroy is sometimes known by another name: bait.
Even when it's not, it may be a distraction.
Even when it's not, it may be a logistical requirement, as is likely to be the case with a wormhole empire that wants to strike far into enemy territory.

In any case, it's an option and a valid strategy if you have a clear goal.
I'll always be in favor of giving players plausible options, and often opposed to taking them away.

Also, it seems to me that requiring a civilian ship to always have an explicit armed escort to enter enemy space, even when there is no reaction from the enemy or when a reaction is your goal, adds to the micromanagement instead of reducing it...

 

[Skyhunteren]

This still is a waste of resources, these stations are not exactly cheap to build and neither are the construction ships, both can be destroyed with relative ease and the defender almost always have the edge here since they are the one fighting on their home turf and close to supportive bases.

This strategy might work if you have a vastly superior fleet, but I would not try it against an opponent who has an equal or stronger fleet.

I would also not do it unless I had an over arching goal with placing those stations there. If your goal is to just to draw out the enemy then raids seem like proper and more effective way to do it.

A single corvette or small group of corvettes might also be difficult to ambush. If they see an incoming fleet they just withdraw and run away. There are always some warning before an enemy appear.

Actuelly in a game of ambushes and counter ambushes the one with the advantage would be the one with the most mobile fleet, which in this case would properly be the WH player.

If you don't also have WH, then you need to either get to the edge of the system or take time charging your enginee. Time the WH player can use to ambush you.

If you on the other hand tries to jump a larger fleet in system, then he can flee using a third WH generator.

 

[Chrysaetos]

I'll always be in favor of giving players plausible options, and often opposed to taking them away.

Yeah I agree heavily with this sentiment.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

As I said..

Actuelly in a game of ambushes and counter ambushes the one with the advantage would be the one with the most mobile fleet, which in this case would properly be the WH player.

If you don't also have WH, then you need to either get to the edge of the system or take time charging your enginee. Time the WH player can use to ambush you.

If you on the other hand tries to jump a larger fleet in system, then he can flee using a third WH generator.

Are you so sure... does it not take time for the wormhole to be established, the larger the fleet the longer it will take and it is detectable during that time. Only travel time are instant.

The chances you jump right into combat might not be so high, so an enemy might be able to escape. They could easily retreat away and then jump before the wormhole is established.

Hyperdrives can jump from any point in a system if I understand things correctly.

Every drive system seem to have some benefit and drawbacks.

You might be able to get away with this tactic if your fleet are more powerful than the opponent fleet, if not you are likely to just get blown up really quick.

Why not establish the WH station at the edge of your space and build some defensive bases to protect it and use a fleet to deep strike into enemy territory, so much easier and safer.
If you do manage to establish space superiority you can build some stations further in if you really need to.

Does it not really depend on what your end goal really are?

I really don't get this whole bait idea and what it is suppose to get you that you can't more simply get by raiding enemy systems instead.

 

[Skyhunteren]

As I said..


Are you so sure... does it not take time for the wormhole to be established, the larger the fleet the longer it will take and it is detectable during that time. Only travel time are instant.

The chances you jump right into combat might not be so high, so an enemy might be able to escape. They could easily retreat away and then jump before the wormhole is established.

Hyperdrives can jump from any point in a system if I understand things correctly.

Every drive system seem to have some benefit and drawbacks.

You might be able to get away with this tactic if your fleet are more powerful than the opponent fleet, if not you are likely to just get blown up really quick.

Why not establish the WH station at the edge of your space and build some defensive bases to protect it and use a fleet to deep strike into enemy territory, so much easier and safer.
If you do manage to establish space superiority you can build some stations further in if you really need to.

Does it not really depend on what your end goal really are?

I really don't get this whole bait idea and what it is suppose to get you that you can't more simply get by raiding enemy systems instead.

It is true that it takes some time for the WH to charge, but there doesn't seem to be any visible warnings, so he will have very little time for reaction.

The thing about raiding and baiting is that it is part of the same tactic. You want to raid his territorie, so you want to go for the must unprotected part. If you are at a war with him, then that is properly the territories the longest away from you.

Of course you have well defended WH stations in your own territories, but if you want to go deeper and have a more reliable network, so you fleet isn't stranded if you lose one or two stations, then you want aditionale stations and you would properly want them in his space.

So you send in a worker to build this station. Is this worker something the opponent can destroy and an effective waste of resources. No, because the opponent doesn't know if it is bait. If he send in 2 corvets to destroy it, then you might send in 2 frigates and destroy them. On the other hand if he commits a large fleet, then he opens up other systems for raiding.

Now if he on the other hand ignores it, then we go from 30% of his empire being open to raid to 75% being open for raids.

 

[kalauer]

An (apparently) easy target to engage and destroy is sometimes known by another name: bait.
Even when it's not, it may be a distraction.
Even when it's not, it may be a logistical requirement, as is likely to be the case with a wormhole empire that wants to strike far into enemy territory.

It is only a bait if there is a trap. This would b Definition require the Intention to Lure enemy fleets to a Position to fight. But the Intention of this strategy, as we are discussing it, is explicitly not to fight but to rely on the assumption that the enemy will not engage because he does not want to take care of These Targets. That is the only assumption in which the attempt to build a Station in enemy territory by an unprotected construction ship has a Point: The Chance to set up infrastructure that is important for the war. But as I said, if ite really is important, then why not send in a serious escort?

You are right, it is an distraction. But not in a strategic, or military sense. But only in Terms of drawing Attention from the Player because he himself has to take care of it, while one would assume that normally, this would be done by subordinates (since the construction ship poses no Military threat). So by all means, this is what I would consider abuse of a game mechanic.

But yes, as stated before, I certainly concur that having a Network of stations is vital for wormhole-Empires. But why should it be established by These tactics? Wouldn't you as a Military planner commit considerable resources to this vital Task? Yet ingame, you send a single unarmed ship to do the Job. This is not "realistic", for all what this term is worth in our Scenario.

In any case, it's an option and a valid strategy if you have a clear goal.
I'll always be in favor of giving players plausible options, and often opposed to taking them away.

I do not vote for taking the Option away completely. Though I admit that this eveolved, compared to the original post: The last state was that I deem it better if the attacker has to field a significant fleet presence in a System he wants to build in, hence projecting some Kind of "control" over it.

Also, the main reason for blaming the current state is that a wormhole-Station may just spam construction ships into the enemy's territory and thus force the Defender to do a lot of micro to hunt These ships down. This may be a clear Goal (to annoy the hell out of him), but not a legitimate one in my perception.

Also, it seems to me that requiring a civilian ship to always have an explicit armed escort to enter enemy space, even when there is no reaction from the enemy or when a reaction is your goal, adds to the micromanagement instead of reducing it...

The escort would not be needed to enter or traverse enemy space but to build there. The benefit of this is, that in case the Defender decides to repel the Invasion, there will be an at least somewhat relevant battle, and not just one of dozens of 1:1 Corvette vs. construction ship Encounter.

So you send in a worker to build this station. Is this worker something the opponent can destroy and an effective waste of resources. No, because the opponent doesn't know if it is bait. If he send in 2 corvets to destroy it, then you might send in 2 frigates and destroy them. On the other hand if he commits a large fleet, then he opens up other systems for raiding.
Now if he on the other hand ignores it, then we go from 30% of his empire being open to raid to 75% being open for raids.

I repeat myself but I want to answer your Points, since I take them seriously: This results in a state where one construction ship can bind a large chunk of the enemy fleet. You send three of them and suddenly the entire enemy fleet is busy. Imagine the enemy does the same. You both will be busy hunting single construction ships and the one with the higher Frustration tolerance in Terms of clicking them around wins and gets his Network. This is not how the game should work, in my opinion.

There is also another possible outcome which I also mentioned before: To cover your construction ship, you send a small fleet. The enemy sends a stronger one, you reinforce furhter etc. After some time, both of you have real fleets there and start to fight for control over the System. Why not cut this reinforce-cycling and send a relevant force in the beginning?

Which of These happen, depends on the balancing of range and Speed of warp, hyperlanes and wormholes as well as building speed, so it is hard to say. But I fail to see an outcome that does not yield a lot of Frustration in this Setup.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

It is true that it takes some time for the WH to charge, but there doesn't seem to be any visible warnings, so he will have very little time for reaction.

The thing about raiding and baiting is that it is part of the same tactic. You want to raid his territorie, so you want to go for the must unprotected part. If you are at a war with him, then that is properly the territories the longest away from you.

Of course you have well defended WH stations in your own territories, but if you want to go deeper and have a more reliable network, so you fleet isn't stranded if you lose one or two stations, then you want aditionale stations and you would properly want them in his space.

So you send in a worker to build this station. Is this worker something the opponent can destroy and an effective waste of resources. No, because the opponent doesn't know if it is bait. If he send in 2 corvets to destroy it, then you might send in 2 frigates and destroy them. On the other hand if he commits a large fleet, then he opens up other systems for raiding.

Now if he on the other hand ignores it, then we go from 30% of his empire being open to raid to 75% being open for raids.

It is a bit of a circular argument... but as long as you have space superiority I don't think that establishing bases in enemy space should be a huge problem.

If you don't have superiority you might find yourself on the loosing side of the raiding game and get your new station destroyed in the process.

In my opinion you either are defensive or on the offensive... it certainly seem like you really need a good amount of space superiority to assault enemy planets and defend your own territory at the same time, not to mention defending "liberated" planets during an offensive.

You will basically find the same problem with establishing bases in enemy territory.

I'm in no way against the tactic or that it can not be possible to do this.

If it is done as a minor part of a greater plan, sure... why not. You need the base to invade an enemy planet that you have a wargoal on or you are just out to destroy as much of the enemy infrastructure as you can before a peace deal as part of your offensive.

But, if you try to use the tactic as part of a defensive strategy against a stronger opponent there is a great risk that your plan will backfire and you loose a big part of your fleet in the process.

 

[Skyhunteren]

Alright, lets assume that your opponent have a significant larger fleet than you. In that case how do you want to use your fleet? Fighting a pitched battle supported by your defensive stations? Yes, if their fleet is only slightly stronger than your, but if the size difference is significant, then engaging their entire fleet at any one point with your fleet, will have only one outcome. That is your fleet being destroyed. So what is the best use of your fleet then?

I guess that it will be destroying his infrastructure, destroying his army while it is being transported or simply trying to keep your fleet alive. All tactics that requires as big a station network as possible.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

Alright, lets assume that your opponent have a significant larger fleet than you. In that case how do you want to use your fleet? Fighting a pitched battle supported by your defensive stations? Yes, if their fleet is only slightly stronger than your, but if the size difference is significant, then engaging their entire fleet at any one point with your fleet, will have only one outcome. That is your fleet being destroyed. So what is the best use of your fleet then?

I guess that it will be destroying his infrastructure, destroying his army while it is being transported or simply trying to keep your fleet alive. All tactics that requires as big a station network as possible.

Problem with that thought is that as soon as you start putting static stations in a stronger opponents space you are essentially asking to engage in pitched battles... you are playing straight into the hands of someone that want to hunt down and destroy your fleet.

In that case the only thing you can do is raiding as best as you can with the range you have on your WH stations. You are just trying to make the war as costly as possible for the enemy.

The first priority in any war is to establish total space domination. The idea of a clearly weaker empire being able to create a network of offensive stations in enemy space seem like an impossible task.

 

[ashbery76]

At war the agreed borders are no longer valid.

 

[Skyhunteren]

The problem is that if your not building new WH stations then you will pretty soon run out of the ability to raid him or even keep your fleet alive.

On the other hand I don't think WH stations in his territory is asking for a pitched battle. If he responce to a WH station with his entire fleet, well then you just don't go there with your fleet. With his fleet there it is not taking planets in your empire.

 

[kalauer]

The problem is that if your not building new WH stations then you will pretty soon run out of the ability to raid him or even keep your fleet alive.

On the other hand I don't think WH stations in his territory is asking for a pitched battle. If he responce to a WH station with his entire fleet, well then you just don't go there with your fleet. With his fleet there it is not taking planets in your empire.

I believeyou are totally overestimating the wormhole mobility. From hat I have seen, while the Transport is instant, you still have some time to Charge up in the System. So your ability to defend the Station while retaining the Advantage of mobility you Need as outnumbered side is limited.

But this is of course subject to balancing.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

The problem is that if your not building new WH stations then you will pretty soon run out of the ability to raid him or even keep your fleet alive.

On the other hand I don't think WH stations in his territory is asking for a pitched battle. If he responce to a WH station with his entire fleet, well then you just don't go there with your fleet. With his fleet there it is not taking planets in your empire.

While you are busy doing that a stronger opponent strike at the heart of your empire and knock out your core WH stations where your response fleet is stationed while at the same time sending smaller detachments to deal with your construction ships/WH stations etc...

No sane admiral would start besieging enemy planets without securing his home front first. Unless there are some timing issue in the way.

Step one... find enemy fleet and engage it in battle or destroy any infrastructure to minimize risk of raiding on your resources. Then you go after planets.

The weaker empire will in this scenario be forced to retreat deeper into friendly space and might be able to raid the outlying enemy systems.

Personally as the weaker empire in this scenario I would strike as deep as I could as fast as I could and then retreat to avoid a clash or make a stand at some place where it will cost the enemy dearly and then cede a planet or two and be done with it.

After the war I would need to find some friends to help protecting me and then take back those two lost system in a second war using a very different strategy.