End the Fish Nerf

[Nuclear Elvis]

Paradox Dev's and Players,
All across the default starting map, there are Provinces that hold the Fish Nerf.
That is - a Province with Fish as the Trade Resource, that has no ability to use the bonus to game factors, in this case - a bonus to Sailors. Sailors are not built up in non-coastal provinces, nor do they contribute toward a national grand total of Sailors as result.

Interior/Non-Coastal Provinces with Fish cannot grow/maintain Sailors, so the Province is Nerfed in terms of a Provincial bonus to a game play related stat.
Caspian Sea and other similar coastal/inland lake bordering provinces have no Naval game play, and also a victim of the Fish Nerf.
Randomization in the Colonization process, especially the Americas, can also result in some interior/non-coastal provinces gaining Fish as the trade resource - and again, suffering from the Fish Nerf.

Let's end it, once and for all. End the Fish Nerf.

In default map, change all non-ocean coastal Provinces with Fish, to some other resource. Hard to figure out what to change to? Pick Grain or Naval Supplies or something/anything except Fish.

As an argument and point to make - in general, the non-coastal Provinces with Fish are NOT producers of Fish at all, they are Consumers of Fish, as the coastal provinces bring in fish and process them. Want to change Caspian Sea coastal Provinces with Fish? Hey, how about we get creative and give credit for what is actually produced there of value - sturgeon fish eggs, as in - Caviar, and give one or two Caspian Provinces a unique trade resource in game with Caviar holding some special bonus (in humor, I'm thinking - small bonus to Diplomatic "Improve Relations").

But back to the topic at hand - the Fish Nerf - it is a lingering problem in game that of all trade resources, this one must have an oceanic coastal setting to have a corresponding "buff" of value that can take effect in the course of game play, aside from the face value as a trade asset.

This doesn't affect a lot of default provincial resources, and would not be an enormous rework of the default map. However, the randomization aspect for colonial regions would require tweaks to the code to put an "If:Then" code sequence that only allows Fish on oceanic coastal provinces.

Thoughts/counter-points? I really think this is a simple change that could get implemented in the next significant game update/patch.

 

[annulen]

I think provinces around Caspian Sea should be treated as coastal, i.e. produce sailors and have trade power bonus.

Also, IMO best bonus of fish is not sailors (does anyone really lack them?) but ability to build efficient soldier's households.

 

[Nuclear Elvis]

I think provinces around Caspian Sea should be treated as coastal, i.e. produce sailors and have trade power bonus.

Also, IMO best bonus of fish is not sailors (does anyone really lack them?) but ability to build efficient soldier's households.

The coastal provinces around the Caspian Sea are just that - coastal, but to a land-locked large Sea that in EU4, has zero Naval play. Having Sailors is pointless if you can't build/use ships in the game, which is why it turns into a Nerf. Even if only of minor significance, at least the other trade resources make some small impact to game play other than the trade value in itself. No ports/ships and thus - no sailors, means the Fish trade resource when under such conditions is, well - a "Fish out of water."

 

[Me_]

Not everything needs to be super mega optimized. The Spice bonus of lowering devastation is barely ever useful for example. Would you suggest adding a ticking devastation to every province in the world so that provinces with spice can benefit from their bonus on a regular basis?

 

[AirikrStrife]

reduced devastation is really nice though, situationally, the most situational thoguh might be tea, garrison growth xd

I agree with the sentiment of OP, trade goods should give some benefit, however small it might be,
Previously I suggested that all provicnes should have sailors, just that inland provicnes should be seriously nerfed, instead they doubled the sailor received form coastal provinces. (sailors could be requited form none coastal areas)

This would relate to almost the only time you are short in sailor, when you're a landlocked nation taking your first coastal provicnes and trying to build up some navy.

I still think this would make sense, half the coastal province sailors, allow sailors in landlocked provinces but at -80% (tentative numbers)

 

[Nuclear Elvis]

Not everything needs to be super mega optimized. The Spice bonus of lowering devastation is barely ever useful for example. Would you suggest adding a ticking devastation to every province in the world so that provinces with spice can benefit from their bonus on a regular basis?

Of course I would not suggest that at all, but your point is Apples vs Oranges (or in this case, Spices vs Fish). Situational Dependent buffs such as Spice Provinces' devastation ticks - are still potential buffs, even if a rare occurrence. Fish buffs are never possible for non-oceanic coastal Provinces, so zero chance of occurrence. The Sailor count is always zero, and never contributes a Buff.

 

[annulen]

One possible solution: if province doesn't produce sailors, fish increases manpower instead of sailors. It would be complementary to Soldier's Households bonus and turn inland fish provinces into top tier asset.

I still think this would make sense, half the coastal province sailors, allow sailors in landlocked provinces but at -80% (tentative numbers)

Great for landlocked countries, but 1) it doesn't improve usefulness of inland fish much; 2) building for sailors is "dock" which makes no sense in non-coastal provinces.

I suggest one of this should be implemented:

• add possibility to convert limited amount of manpower into sailors, with cooldown period and limited efficiency, e.g. 20%;
• allow building impressment offices in non-coastal provinces, so in fish province you gain flat 500 sailors multiplied by local sailors efficiency %

 

[Bshepp]

I think provinces around Caspian Sea should be treated as coastal, i.e. produce sailors and have trade power bonus.

Also, IMO best bonus of fish is not sailors (does anyone really lack them?) but ability to build efficient soldier's households.

I also strongly agree. Caspian provinces should be coastal provinces as should the great lakes in the America's.

 

[Nuclear Elvis]

I also strongly agree. Caspian provinces should be coastal provinces as should the great lakes in the America's.

I could see that as a compromise, that Caspian and Great Lakes coastal provinces contribute Sailors if one also has Oceanic-coastal provinces, but I wonder how hard that would be to code into the game, to add in Sailors for interior provinces without a port/ship-building possible. If it's too difficult, then changing the resource altogether from Fish to something/anything else would still be the preferred change.

 

[screwface]

Then the same should be reworked also for bonuses from naval supplies (naval force limit) and trading bonus for wool (ship cost).
The next level would be to go even further with non-universal bonuses - cotton bonus (global settler increase) only for countries with colonist, dyes bonus (chance of new heir) for monarchies only, slaves (global tariffs) only for colonial overlords or silk bonus (+1 promoted cultures) for non-Mughals.

 

[BalticM]

The best it would be to get rid of those province bonuses completely.

 

[Nuclear Elvis]

Then the same should be reworked also for bonuses from naval supplies (naval force limit) and trading bonus for wool (ship cost).
The next level would be to go even further with non-universal bonuses - cotton bonus (global settler increase) only for countries with colonist, dyes bonus (chance of new heir) for monarchies only, slaves (global tariffs) only for colonial overlords or silk bonus (+1 promoted cultures) for non-Mughals.

Disagree, as your perspective is Apples vs Oranges. You're talking "Restrictions" yet the buff still holds "Potential." I am talking about Impossibilities that never hold Potential to be used as a metric/buff during gameplay. Today's Monarchy is tomorrow's Republic. Today's landholding Monarchy may be conquered tomorrow by the neighboring Mercantile Republic. Today's insular small nation without Colonists is tomorrow's Globetrotting Colonialist (or conquered by such).

This nerf due to Fish holding an impossible "never on" buff doesn't translate to changing all the other provincial buffs, but rather - that the environment in which the resource exists in the first place, is not compatible. Inland/non-ocean coastal provinces are incompatible for Fish as a templated Trade Resource, is the macro point here, and that needs change toward "where" Fish resource is placed on the map, not to change the map or to change all other resource pools' buffs.