End game unit Diversity

[I_AM_King_Midas]

One big problem I see with games like this is that as time goes on you no longer need to build the early game units. People end up just using their powerful end game units and unit diversity is lost. I would like to see armies filled with different types of units throughout the game.

Has Planetfall done anything to make sure that people would still want to use all units vs just spamming the end game ones?

 

[BloodyBattleBrain]

mod system?

 

[HousePet]

Exponential unit upkeep?
More than 1 T4 unit available without dwellings? (Although the mod system potentially allows you to just use a single T4 with different mods.)

 

[AwesomeLion]

Cosmite will always help to limit the amount of T3's and T4 units presence on the battlefield. I do believe Triumph also mentioned that some of the T4 units were going to fill more of a support role then a combat role also. They won't neccessarily be a unit that can tank all and destroy everything.

They are also open to doing hard caps for T4's if the soft caps aren't enough to limit the high unit tier spam. It's something they are very aware of and looking into what is the best solution.

As @BloodyBattleBrain mentioned, you also have the mod system that will help make lower tier units more on par with higher tier ones. Keep in mind that a modded tier 1 or 2 unit will not have a cosmite upkeep, unlike the T3's and T4's.

 

[Fenraellis]

The de facto greatest limiter to high end unit spam, already shown, is that producing T3 and T4 units will impose a Cosmite upkeep, thus inhibiting the production of further T3 and T4 units. Also, even the production of unit mods in general.

For example, if one were to have 5 Cosmite income by default(a common attribute in early images), then somehow obtaining an early T3 unit will cut that income down to 3, a 40% loss. Later in the game, perhaps you have 50, or even 100 Cosmite income. A stack of 1 T4 and 5 T3s would cost 14 Cosmite upkeep. Which is about 2/7ths of 50, or 1/7th of 100.

Ultimately, unless armies are significantly smaller, I foresee a lot of T2 units being used later in the game as well.

Now, ignoring unit tier variety, consider the following:
Each faction has:
2 T1 units (2 Core)
5 T2 units (2 Core, 3 Researched, 1 is naval)
4 T3 units (3 Researched, 1 is naval)
1 T4 unit (1 Researched)
(and 1 Colonizer, and often at least one special-summon unique unit of varying tiers, even if only in combat)

Compared to prior AoWs that means roughly two to three times the T2 diversity, and about three to four times the T3 diversity. Yes, one of each is a naval unit, but they are faction-unique naval units, at least.

Then the Secret Tech selection also adds a T2 unit, and either two T3 units, or a T3 and a T4 unit(unconfirmed if accessible by the Secret Tech, but a long time ago, there was implied to be a Xenoplague T4). Even if one wanted to directly compare Faction + Secret Tech to Race + Class, there are a greater set of units available to the player in Planetfall. In particular at the mid to high end tiers. Discounting the Archdruid and to a lesser degree Sorcerer's summon pool spells.

Then they are releasing with five Dwelling/NPC-Factions, each with a unit lineup of their own, with T1 through T4 units.

And Marauders, which can potentially be controlled, otherwise recruited, and in a few cases, produced.

Then lastly, as mentioned by others before me. Unit mods will allow diversity even within the exact same base unit, and this will be applicable to any unit you can get under your command, Faction/Secret Tech, NPC-Faction and even Marauders.
These mods will come not just from your Faction and Secret Tech selections, but also from your relations with NPC-Factions, and potentially to some undisclosed degree from Secondary Factions, as well as possibly even as special site reward unlocks(talking about not just the hero-unique mod rewards), or Landmark unlocks.

 

[BloodyBattleBrain]

also, iirc each secret tech has a T4 unit?


Although...now that I think of it...maybe I'm wrong?

I thought Xenoplague had a T4 unit?


If I am right, that means 2 t4 units per faction.

However @Fenraellis is correct, the push seems to be in malking t1 and t2 units the bread and butter of your armies, t3 the spearheads/tanks and t4 general utility and support.

I am still hoping one faction gets a no nonsense bruiser as t4.

 

[Zaskow]

mod system?

... is available for T4 too.

Personally, I don't have big hopes about cosmite effectiveness of limit of anything. It was said, player might bath in cosmite at the end of game. People prefer to hire most powerful units not looking at their costs. If t4s will be too weak as simple war unit - fine, we'll spam t3s instead. Don't forget that game balance could be tweaked into easier direction especially after whines and crying of players 'Why I can't spam t3/t4 enough???'.
As for me hard T4 would be best solution in current state or softer limit alike T3 takes 2 slots in stack, T4 - 3 etc.

 

[Fenraellis]

@BloodyBattleBrain
The Promethean Secret Tech has a T2 and two T3s, the Synthethis and Celestian techs appear to match the same pattern(based upon observation of their tech windows). It's possible that Xenoplague will shake things up and have the T4 unit teased once upon a time, but they may have also lowered it down to a T3 unit as well.

@Zaskow
It's up to you, I suppose, to have any belief in the capabilities of the Devs, both in balancing, and in not performing unnecessary balancing, withstanding potentially inappropriate calls for the same. If not, then I guess you simply need to be ready and willing to mod the game, or wait for others to do it instead.

Balancing the frequency of Cosmite is simply a matter of numbers tuning. Also, please don't forget that simply having T3 and T4 units reduces your capability of producing more of them, let alone modded units in general. In contrast, T2s will only ever cost Energy upkeep, and without a base unit Cosmite cost compared to T3/T4 units(and lower scaling Cosmite costs!), will be far more easily equipped with a full set of Unit Mods. Expensive Higher tier Unit Mods, even.

If anything, if the other T4s are more like the Earth Crusher(*), I don't really see a reason to spam them. Sure, it's an innately hardier unit, and it will certainly have combat utility, and I think it's likely a solid unit. It's no Juggernaut, though, offensively speaking, and a player will have better success mostly filling out with T3 units, if they can afford to do so. Hell, the T4 might not even be classified as an 'Elite' unit, in which case it can't benefit from either the production cost reduction, nor the up to +3 Armor bonus, of the Advanced Military Engineering Guild.

*I wouldn't be entirely surprised if there is at least one T4 which fulfills an explicitly offensive role, but likely with a distinct drawback to its use. It does appear that T3 units are designed to generally be the offensive powerhouses, though, not T4.

 

[Draxynnic]

@BloodyBattleBrain
*I wouldn't be entirely surprised if there is at least one T4 which fulfills an explicitly offensive role, but likely with a distinct drawback to its use. It does appear that T3 units are designed to generally be the offensive powerhouses, though, not T4.

I could see a psionic unit behaving similar to a Shrine of Smiting in order to achieve this: gaining increased power when other units of a particular type are on the battlefield, but not counting as that type of unit itself, thereby discouraging simply loading full stacks of them.

 

[Fenraellis]

Presuming Celestian is still one T2 and two T3s... that leaves Psifish, Psynumbra(*), Kir'ko and Syndicate for a possible 'Shrine-like' T4 Psionic unit. Well, barring other units, but I was thinking along the lines of unit-sources that might have a mod to grant a requisite shared trait. Although even simply 'Psionic' trait, as an identifier, could work, and make it more flexible in it's companion units.

Due to the hive-mind past of Kir'ko they probably would fit pretty well for such a unit, I suppose. In which case, 'Kir'ko' would also be a valid identifier, if perhaps more restrictive in some ways as well.

*Psynumbra, being a Secret Tech is a bit less likely than the other two, but possible, at least if Xenoplague does actually have a T4 unit.

 

[Thrake]

I think that there are several mechanics that incentivize the T4 spam. We have the production overflow that will be solved in planetfall.

Another one is that hero can only monitor 6 units, and since the buff limits it to stack level then you're better off with one T4 stack and one hero than multiple low tier stacks that don't get precious bonus. Similarly, unit buff is better spent on a T4 while a hero casting a buff on a T1 is wasted (though the theocrat buff that stacks with tier difference is a smart spell that can keep some of the strong low tier interesting). Then is the fact that there are so many T4 or even hero artifacts with massive attack areas that it makes the T1 pretty much obsolete, one breath ability can pretty much kill one full T1 stack. Of course you can spread the T1 but then the T4 will isolate them and pick them one by one. And we come to another imbalance, which is excessive speed of the T4. There are too many flyers or floaters, and it seems that higher tier almost comes with higher speed. Too mobile and too strong. I think having slower T4 instead would have been interesting, to make them weaker to shooters and skirmish strategies. Well, I guess in planetfall mobility won't be overly important with shooter based gameplay.

I also think they would be better balanced if they had less resistances but more health, to make them as hard to kill but give a meaningful chance to debuff them. So many weak units could be used to stack debuffs, even if they couldn't kill the T4 all by themselves, they would allow your T4 to do the job. Here lose some morale, here lose some action points, here lose some defense,... lots of possibilities but it's not helpful with a 5 or 10% trigger chance. On the other hand the T4 tend to have lots of nasty debuff like fear that commonly ends up with weaklling armies with the potential to kill them simply die because they triggered fear on their first hit on the ennemy.

Lastly is the lack overall of T4 (no racial T4) and the fact that most of units are low tiers. So diversity decreases as the game goes on.

I personnaly find that the theocrat is the way to go. Shrine ability is smart and say a tigran pike is situational but with guard break and the pike ability it's a good counter to flyers. Against other troops it feels more obsolete, but it has its use. You also get the +10 HP spell that's comparatively stronger on weaker troops. And of course mighty meek spell.

A more arbitrary but interesting solution I think is the way Eador handles this, which is that a hero can lead up to 1 or 2 T4, 3 T3, maybe 4 T2 and 5 T1 or so. So no matter how much you like T4 and no matter how strong it is it's just a fraction of your army. It does not solve the fact that the T1 won't do much more than in AOW but since everyone brings some in battle then they end up killing other T1 or supporting T4 even if they aren't the stars of the show.

 

[Tombles]

I can't go into much detail right now, and obviously this will hopefully change in balancing, but our problem right now is the exact opposite of what you guys are worrying about. Essentially, people often don't bother making T3 units at all since modded T2s are so good that the transition doesn't feel worth it to them. We're currently buffing T3s to try and make them feel more valuable.

I'm not saying T3/4 spam won't be a problem (though I hope it won't) it's very hard to predict what the meta will be once the dust has settled afew months after release. But right now, we're not worrying about it in the same way a guy stuck in the desert doesn't worry about drowning

 

[Damkac]

On the latest screenshots we saw often lower tier units have similar or even better stats than higher tier units so I can image T3 not being so valuable.

My idea is the limit of 2 heroes/tier 4 units per stack.

 

[Tomipapa]

@Tombles

Have you guys considered putting unit mods into tiers?And units could only use mods from their tiers or lower, so a T1 unit could only use T1 mods, A T2 unit could use T2 or T1 mods, ect.
With this, low tier units have more chance against unmoded high tiers, on the other hand it would prevent the players from spamming superly buffed T1/T2 units who could go toe to toe against expensive units. Like that micro nuclear payload mod from the dvar video which only requirements to have a unit with explosive ability, so i guess at the moment theoretically nothing prevent the player to apply this mod to the dvar prospector(basic scout) since it has explosive weapons, and from that moment having a basic unit which will melt shield/armor, blind enemies, has +30 percent damage and pretty much spammable from everywhere.

 

[Technogremlin]

A low tier unit with one powerful mod would have one powerful aspect, such as a strong ranged attack, while having everything else about it being the same as the unmodded version. This seems like it would have a specific battlefield role, meaning it shouldn't be spammed. Spamming might work for a bit, but there would be something else cheap that could counter it.

Low tier units with three powerful mods might be a problem, as they could be good at everything, like aow3 tier 4s, but we will just have to hope that the cosmite cost is enough ro make that too expensive.

In either case, the player has more possibilities at the same cost, so you would expect some more varied armies.

Similar to the shrine of smiting, I think they could make lots of situations where a unit works well with other units. For example, they could make the dvar foreman do more damage when in a trench created by a trencher.

 

[Jolly Joker]

Wth all due respect, but this "unit diversity" and "unit spam" is repeated every so often - and it's utter nonsense. OF COURSE you "spam" units the moment you "mass produce". It doesn't matter whether you produce one unit or a "unit combo", with or without "mods". A stack can have 6 units - either you are limited to a certain combo in there, or you can actually extend things to 2 or even 3 stacks - but then you virtually spam indeed units, because you'll have a lot more to cover than what you can with one stack triple.

If you have an important mod (like the one in the Dvar video), IT WILL BE SPAMMED, and that's actually a lot worse then spamming units because instead of a mod it could just be an empire upgrade (it becomes a matter of course). Everything that has something going for it will be spammed like a Soviet T-34, that's in the nature of things. The only question, ever, is WHAT, because inevitably something will.

There is also nothing wrong with "spamming" your best units - that's why they are researched. Keep in mind that when you do you already have a sizable army in place and the newly researched unit WILL and MUST be spammed to bolster said existing army, otherwise why bother at all.

So when Tombles says

I can't go into much detail right now, and obviously this will hopefully change in balancing, but our problem right now is the exact opposite of what you guys are worrying about. Essentially, people often don't bother making T3 units at all since modded T2s are so good that the transition doesn't feel worth it to them. We're currently buffing T3s to try and make them feel more valuable.

I'm not saying T3/4 spam won't be a problem (though I hope it won't) it's very hard to predict what the meta will be once the dust has settled afew months after release. But right now, we're not worrying about it in the same way a guy stuck in the desert doesn't worry about drowning

it's exactly what's expected because the only reason to research T3 and T4s is to actually build them. If T1 and T2 with Mods are too strong, then there is no reason to research T3 and T4s - instead research better MODS and upgrade your existing troops.

That's what I've been saying the whole time: the availability of mods (which is just another name for upgrade) will make WAY bigger differences between tiers necessary and way bigger differences with prices as well, because there MUST be a good reason to go for higher tiers, otherwise no one will build or even research them.

Luckily enough there are a lot of ways to make units better - RANGE and ACCURACY seems to be an interesting factor or AoE damage, pace, maybe even action points.

The thing to keep in mind here is that it's not the diversity of UNITS that will be the thing here, but the diversity of one and the same unit you can have with different mods/mod sets.
And with this comes the danger to be able to satisfy every need by building the same basic unit and just apply different mod configurations.

 

[Leyrann]

But right now, we're not worrying about it in the same way a guy stuck in the desert doesn't worry about drowning

Actually, that can be quite a danger in the desert if you're unsuspecting. Wadis can fill up very fast.

 

[Technogremlin]

Some unit spam might be good for replay value. If an empire always uses all of it's units evenly then every time you play against that race, or at least that race/class combination, it could feel the same. However if in one game they almost exclusively use infantry, but in another they use many fliers, it would be a different experience and the empires would have some unique character.

This will only work if there aren't any specific combinations of units and mods that are very good and always get used, but I think there are so many combinations that every combination will have another combination that counters it.

So tier 4 spam is more of a problem, as each race only has one tier 4 unit and will always spam that.

And it is more realistic for an empire to have many infantry or light vehicles, which is what tier ones and twos are.

 

[HousePet]

I don't think I saw a secret tech T4 unit in the last stream, and I'm a bit concerned by this.
Not having options is even worse than it being optimal to not use the options.

 

[Damkac]

Ideally there should be synergy between the units that makes few units of different types stronger than the same number of a single unit. For example a tank and an engineer (to repair and reload the tank) should be stronger or at least more efficent to its cost than 2 tanks.