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Schlieffen

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Rez: Well in terms of what happens during Victor's lifetime, that's it: he's dead in '03. Don't worry, though - his legend lives on... ;)
As for the style, that's basically why I chose it. I've gotten lost in encyclopedias, just looking up fact after fact after fact, trying to piece together every detail (Wikipedia, more recently, is the bane of my existance :D ). I've never gotten that with any sort of fiction, while I've had an interest in the same stories if presented in this format - the Battletech novels, for instance, didn't hold me much (although its the only fiction I've ever voluntarily read from start to finish :rolleyes: ), but reading about the same things in the sourcebooks interested me to no end. Again, I think it's the historian in me.

Well I'm feeling a little better, so I think I'll start writing about some of the events afterwards, maybe in the "Victoria" article to avoid a post for every two-bit heir.
 

unmerged(59381)

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Schlieffen said:
I've never gotten that with any sort of fiction, while I've had an interest in the same stories if presented in this format - the Battletech novels, for instance, didn't hold me much (although its the only fiction I've ever voluntarily read from start to finish :rolleyes: ), but reading about the same things in the sourcebooks interested me to no end. Again, I think it's the historian in me.

It's the same here, I could probably tell you everything to do with Lord of the Rings despite never having managed to plough my way through the books. Although I'd imagine Tolkein is a lot less painful than the Battletech novels from what I've heard....
 

Schlieffen

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Wars of the Roses: A civil war fought over the throne of England between adherents of the House of Lancaster and the House of York.

<As historical until the death of Edward IV>

Richard III
The restoration of Edward IV in 1471 might have been the end of the Wars of the Roses - indeed, peace was restored for the remainder of Edward's reign - but when he died suddenly in 1483, political and dynastic turmoil erupted again. Under Edward IV, factions had developed between the Queen's Woodville relatives and others who resented their new-found status at court, seeing them as power-hungry upstarts and parvenus. At the time of Edward's death, his heir, Edward V, was only 12 years old, placing the Woodvilles in a position to influence the young king's future government. This was too much for the anti-Woodville faction to handle, and in the struggle for the protectorship of the young king and control of the council, Edward's brother Richard, Duke of Gloucester, who had been named by Edward IV on his deathbed as Protector of England, became the de facto leader of the anti-Woodville faction.
Richard eventually managed to capture Edward V from the Woodvilles and imprisoned him, along with his younger brother, in the Tower of London. After securing the boys, he alleged that Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville had been illegal, making the two boys illegitimate. Parliament agreed and officially named Gloucester as King Richard III.

The Yorkists Splinter
When Richard took the throne he was in a difficult position. Not only had he upset the Woodvilles and their allies when he took power, but he was also a Yorkist without an heir. Although he managed to contain the situation for a time, the situation degraded when Edward V and his brother were smuggled out of the Tower of London in 1485, giving political opponents of Richard something to rally behind.
The civil war started slowly, with areas silently giving their allegience to Edward by subverting Richard's rule. This continued until Richard began to get paranoid and struck out at the nobility, demanding taxes be paid in full, often when they already had been, and occasionally attempting to revoke titles when he thought he was being conspired against. Open warfare erupted in 1492, when Edward sent an army to revoke the Duke of Norfolk's titles, which Richard had previousally granted as a gift for supporting him in 1483.

Lancaster Revival
Meanwhile, Lancastrian hopes were centered on Henry Tudor, whose father, Edmund Tudor, had been an illegitimate half-brother of Henry VI. Henry's claim to the throne was precarious at best, but the Lancasterians rallied behind the charasmatic figure regardless, offering him what they could while still attempting to affect the outcome between the Yorkist candidates. As Lancaster power in England was weak at the time, Henry took a gamble and landed his armies in Calais in 1492, taking advantage of Victor I's devastating victory over France to secure a "European base" from which to continue the Wars of the Roses. Brittany also participated in this attack, albeit not intentionally, and Victor I, having no desire for France to recuperate or England's internal struggles to end, captured the lands south of Paris, saving Henry from any French counterattack. Henry managed to secure an alliance with Brittany, offering most of his newly acquired French possessions in exchange for assistance in Henry's attempts to claim England from the severely weakened Yorkists.

The Roses Revisited
A Lancastrian invasion force, mostly consisting of mercenaries, landed in Southern England in 1494, escorted by Breton ships. The Yorkists were still fighting with the tide slowly turning against Richard III, but Richard's forces were completely shattered when Henry Tudor's forces took London, killing Richard in the battle. Many of Richard's traditionally Yorkist supporters, fearing retribution should Edward V win, supported Henry in the ensuing war, the remainder going to Edward and hoping for leniancy, and much of Edward's own Lancastrian forces defected as well.
The ensuing war lasted for several years, with the support Henry had gained by Richard's supports dropping over time. Although it looked for a time like a stalemate would be reached, there was no question of the outcome after Brittany invaded Henry's French possessions in late 1503, an opportunistic strike by Adolph I of Victoria thwarting any plans to retake the area. With the loss of his European base of operations, which he had relied upon heavily for soldiers and income, Henry's forces began to dwindle, until he was defeated and hung after the Battle of Surrey. With no Lancastrian candidate readily available and the swift penalties handed out by Edward V to any who would claim it, the Wars of the Roses, excepting a few brief respites, had finally ended.
 
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Schlieffen

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Nothing about Victoria this update - just some ahistorical fun with the Wars of the Roses, still to be completed. Since I'm working on the ideas for Victor's heirs in my head, I figured I might as well know what's going on with their neighbors. ;)
 

Schlieffen

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Ok, I'll do the next update, finishing off the Wars of the Roses and maybe a ruler or two after Victor (I'm iffy about if I'll need to do anything else before then, but I think it'll be fine), but only after I get at least one more comment. I need to know if people are reading or not before I go spending hours trying to make this all make sense! (I knew almost nothing about the Wars of the Roses before I wrote the article about it. :D )
 

das

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TECHNICALLY I haven't read this yet, and merely gave it a passing glance or two on my usual forum-checking routine. But I do intend to read it some time soon, especially when there will be more to read.

This sounds like an ambitious project; good luck - you'll need it. ;) And also be ready for constructive criticism as I have (on a different forum) written several 15th (or about so) century althists. There is no better way to memorize real history as well as the various possible divergences... Although I never did do a "fourth option" (new dynasty, but neither Habsburg nor French) Burgundy. Curious as to what will come out of this.
 

Schlieffen

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das said:
TECHNICALLY I haven't read this yet, and merely gave it a passing glance or two on my usual forum-checking routine. But I do intend to read it some time soon, especially when there will be more to read.
Well than this comment doesn't count. I need one more before I post again. :D

I don't really need luck - I just need persistance. It's really not that bad if you just take it one step at a time, tying off lose ends as you go along (thus why I'm finishing off England before continuing with the main thread). It essentially amounts to looking at a situation and going, "Ok, what could happen here that seems somewhat plausible." Admittedly a few things will raise an eyebrow or two, but if they hadn't actually happened, so would a lot of RL history. I figure there's a nice buffer before I push things too much. ;)
As for the Burgundy bit... Yeah, I really messed up Europe. I basicaly have to start from scratch regarding everything from this point forward. Hopefully it will be as much fun as it will be work. :D
 

das

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Not sure about ALL of Europe, but the west is irrevocably changed unless the French make a sudden recovery. Possibly signing a pragmatic alliance with the Habsburgs against these annoying, strategically-positioned Burgundians that might extend claims to Tyrol again now that they became so strong...
 

Schlieffen

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It would still be fairly irrevocably different, even if all that changed was Burgundy being inherited differently. Suddenly the Hapsburgs are constrained to Austria, there's no Spanish Netherlands or the consequences it held... no, I'm fairly certain that Western Europe will never be the same. ;)
 

das

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Do you need any input or ideas? Mind, I probably won't resist and offer you some input anyway, but if I get a permission I will fell much better about it. ;)
 

unmerged(58610)

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The Burgundian inheritance was sparked early by Charles the Bold's death but would have happened because he and his English (Yorkist) wife only had a daughter. If she doesn't marry a Habsburg, there's no succession question. You have already reduced France such that it wouldn't the power to enforce any feudal overlord claims due to Salic Law. The Burgundians could have changed their inheritance Laws so that Maria could be Duchess or decided that Burgundy was now a Kingdom and proclaimed her Queen. In your fictional account (If I remember correctly) Victor I married the heiress and became Duke of Burgundy.

You might have confined the Habsburgs to Austria but they'll still inherit Bohenia (30 years war will still trigger), Hungary (fight the Turk) and possibly Spain though your family might win the HRE election and not Charles V. Unless you absorb Brandenburg, Prussia will still form. Luther will still nail his 95 Theses to a door and the Reformation will still fire.

That would not preclude someone like William of Orange marrying into the royal family either now or later and forming the Netherlands at the appropriate time, albeit a much larger country.

Depending on how your relations with your neighbours go, you may find yourself taking a "French" position with the wars you have to fight. You may even find yourself in a postion where you can justify having both French and Dutch generals, admirals, conquistadors and explorers!
 
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I do have much to say, but, again, I'd preffer to wait for the author's reply on whether or not he actually needs input. Though I disagree with your determinism. ;)
 

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das, with the greatest of respect The Habsburg inheritance events will fire unless something happens to change them. The claims to the Luxemburg inheritance come from Albrecht V marrying the daughter of Sigismund who'd married the heiress to Hungary. If a habsburg marries the heiress to Trastamara Spain, their issue will have a claim to rule Spain. Bohemia and Hungary did chose other non-Habsburg rulers, but ultimately settled on the Habsburgs (enforced and by choice respectively). Spain could have opted to go Portuguese, though women were accepted as rulers in their own right and her issue was the rightful heir.

Schlieffen has yet to post anything to suggest that the Catholic Church has reformed itself to the extent that Luther won't nail his words to a door and/or that the Catholic Church will not excommunicate him thereafter.

Certainly having Brittany, Britain (England) and Burgundy as neightbours feels as though they'll be a whole lot more peaceable, but it's a new dynamic. It does leave open what effect two women, Catherine de Medici and Mary Queen of Scots will now have and how Scotland (an early union?) will fare without the Auld Alliance.

The Burgubndians may use their Yorkist connections as a pretext to help themselves to the lands in France held by the lancastrian claimant. That's not going to help anglo-burgundian relations, if England wants the lands returned.
 
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das

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Thing is, as this has very little to do with the game itself, the events are made pretty much irrelevant. I rather enjoy playing around with vectors of expansion. If the Habsburgs do not get Burgundy, I rather doubt that they would go for global empire, or for Spain, because the acquisition of Burgundy resulted in a general westwards shift of attention and the need to find an ally in Spain to counter France. In this world, instead, Austria will concentrate on the east, claiming Hungary far earlier than in OTL and generally setting the Turks back. They might also get Poland - they did try in OTL, and here they will generally concentrate on the east.

As for the reformation, one of the reasons it got THIS far was that Germany was undergoing a crisis caused by the clash of central authority and local feudals, who thus rallied to the banners of the Reformation when the Emperor remained Catholic. In this world, the Habsburgs would be a) weaker, b) poorer, c) distracted in the east and d) bereft of their western strongholds. No Imperial Reform - or at least, none as major as that - and consequently, a much stabler Germany.
 

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The Antipopes had enjoyed support in Germany from princes who would eventually turn protestant. It was the failure of the Catholic Church to reform thereafter that was the cause of the Reformation.

I find it hard to imagine how a poorer weaker Habsburg family would have been able to press their claims more effectively in those areas than they did in reality. They started as a Swabian family who were kicked out of their Schwyz holdings. They played the dynastic marriage game extremely well. Trastamara Spain's expansion into Italy matched their own dynastic goals as well as those of the Hohenstaufen Holy Roman Emperors whose achievements they wished to emulate and surpass.

The reality was that Germany was fragmented despite the efforts of the HRE via the Interregnum of the late 13th century and the Pope-Emperor struggles in the 14th. The princes weren't in any real hurry to surrender their own privileges.

Gaining Spain and the New World woud have provided a much more solid foundation and they would not have had to fight France. The Spanish Armada, assuming it was launched, would have had to take soldiers with them and may therefore have succeeded. Charles V may not have been Emperor, not got worn out fighting Princes and left all his lands to his son.

The Tyrol-Austria claim travels both ways. If Maria Theresa should try to rule Austria, Victor I's descendants might be able to press their claim on the entire Habsburg empire.
 

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Ah, all these replies. Only from two people, but still, I'll take what I can get. :D
das said:
Do you need any input or ideas? Mind, I probably won't resist and offer you some input anyway, but if I get a permission I will fell much better about it. ;)
By all means, feel free. Try not to be too harsh about it - a single man can only do so much research, so there are bound to be a few holes in there - but I'm open to suggestions and such. Don't count on too many making in it, though. (If enough people want to start a collaborative project, I may be able to get up an actual Wiki or something... ;) )
Chief Ragusa said:
Depending on how your relations with your neighbours go, you may find yourself taking a "French" position with the wars you have to fight. You may even find yourself in a postion where you can justify having both French and Dutch generals, admirals, conquistadors and explorers!
Believe me, when I'm done with this, you won't recognise any of these countries! :D

As for the arguements about what will come, they're all fairly valid - it basically depends on what Victor's successors do, throwing the balance in favor of one power or against another. I assure you though that history means almost nothing after this point. I've already obliterated France as we know it (I'm thinking a different dynasty at this point, at the very least), several good points about the future Austria have been brought up... You can't change one region without altering the others, and I've altered this one big time. Expect really strange looking maps in the future. :D
Anyways, I suppose you've met your posting quota. I guess I'll have to finish off the Wars of the Roses... *sigh* :p

EDIT:
Chief Ragusa said:
The Tyrol-Austria claim travels both ways. If Maria Theresa should try to rule Austria, Victor I's descendants might be able to press their claim on the entire Habsburg empire.
Just noticed this bit. Sorry, Victor's family were local nobles, completely unrelated to the Hapsburgs. Did I put something else up there, or was it just an assumption? (Just making sure I didn't write something wrong.)
 

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Schlieffen said:
Just noticed this bit. Sorry, Victor's family were local nobles, completely unrelated to the Hapsburgs. Did I put something else up there, or was it just an assumption? (Just making sure I didn't write something wrong.)

True there is an assumption that to inherit Tyrol Victor would need some relationship to the former Counts of Tyrol, just as the Habsburgs did. It may take some pretty exhaustive genealogical research to find the deeply buried tenuous and long forgotten link between the Habsburgs and Victor, but it will be in there somewhere. Victor may not be aware of it.

I look forward to reading about how it all unfolds.
 

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Well as it is now, I have "...Margarete Maultasch, lacking any descendants to succeed her, bequeathed Tyrol to a minor noble from the region which the Hapsburg Emperor, tired of the issue, accepted." Historically the Hapsburgs took it at this point, thus Tyrol being Hapsburg. I cut it off before it even got that far.

Anyways, I finished of the Wars of the Roses (Spoiler: Edward wins!) and added a brief... ok, a sub-par "Victoria" article (the second post was saved for that article). Hopefully I'll be able to update it soon, but the basic idea is that Victor's heir doesn't last long and the next in line is a minor, so it's time for Victor's old enemies get their revenge! :D
 

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Rulers of Victoria
Victor I (The Founder)
(b.1456)
(1481-1503)
Inherited Burgundy, shattered the French state; founded Victoria. Often given

the title Emperor, even though Victoria would not become an Empire until

centuries later.
------------------------------------------
Adolph I
(b.1480)
(1503-1506)
------------------------------------------
Konrad I (The Young)
(b.1500)
(1506-1515)
Assumed the throne at age six, died at fifteen.
------------------------------------------
Vincent I
(b.1502)
(1515-1539)
Assumed the throne at age twelve
------------------------------------------
Victor II (The Great)
(b.1520)
(1539- )
Ended the Trial of Victor; greatly expanded Victorian power,

interpreted the writings of Victor I into Vicarism and

Victorianism.
------------------------------------------
 
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I'm not getting a very good post/view ratio, am I? :p

Added Victoria article (that old one doesn't count :p) and a brief list of Victoria's leaders so far. Also a peak of what's to come in coming articles - the near-collapse and revival of Victoria. ;)

EDIT: Also note that the monarchial nicknames are cool, at least for the Victors. None of that "The Good" garbage around here. :D