NP is ~always worth it, because it's a percentage increase. EPG at ~1100/pop is an insult, but if you're running a huge sufficit, might as well.
Encourage Planetary Growth v. Nutritional Plenitude
- Thread starter Zenopath
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Based on... what ? Have you even read the answers in this thread ? Numbers here do not agree with you
You mean the happiness increase?
It does give a small total productivity boost.
I think the growth bonus % is just additive like all the other growth bonuses, which puts it pretty low late game. The happiness increase actually becomes more meaningful in late game because not much happiness increase is available, and overall productivity increased by happiness is higher on a per pop basis...
But remember that stability is not equal to happiness, so idk. Situational.
I think something that's not entirely being considered here in terms of the debate on whether to use NP and EPG is what *else* you can do with that food stockpile in the early game, since that's what were discussing here. (in other words, we're not discussing the universal use of the policies, but their early game use)
Perhaps its a result of the fact that I almost always plays machinist and so my robot pops are efficiently producing food like gangbusters, but in the early game I have no problem keeping both EPG and NP running at the same time while having a sufficient stockpile for colony ships whenever I need them. Mind you, I tend to use EPG only on my capital planet and only use it on colonies once they have grown a bit.
In most of the games I have played so far, the only other real "use" for your food stockpile is a colony ship, and your economy can only really support so many new colonies at a time in the early game.
Put another way, in the early game your priority tends to be to build your snowball as quickly as possible, right? NP and EPG on your capital do that, and NP helps colonies out at a generally low cost, and I can't think of many better uses for your food stockpile. I mean, we can debate the ROI on the food invested all we want, but the ROI in food investment compared to what exactly?
Really, my OP was asking 1 question, should I build a 3rd farm as my 1st building or an alloy factory as my 1st building.
As an organic, this is actually a big decision. But even in more general terms, your food supply is based on how many farms you have. Every time you build a farm, you could have built an energy district, or mining district or something else. If you are running a massive food surplus, then sure, why not use both? But you created that surplus yourself by choosing how many farms to build.
Ah, fair enough. I lost track that this was the tradeoff being debated as I read the thread, sorry.
I'm not sure there's a "correct" answer here either, however. The primary use of increased alloy production would be to build a bigger fleet and for colony ships, yes? With starbases, your limiting factor early game won't be alloys, I'd think, but rather influence?
So if you have any nearby aggressive neighbors, or any concentrations of important planets you need to get to quickly because you want to claim them before other nearby empires do (I tend to find that your base alloy production is sufficient to establish your two similar systems colonies without too much hassle, maybe that's just me?), or other needs for alloys early on, you'd go that route.
If instead, you have some empty room around you, with your nearest neighbors at more of a remove and thus no immediate need for those alloys, you would probably go with the farm instead and a juice your pop growth strategy. Either way, like any strategic decision you need to scout the nearby area quickly to gather information to determine which is best.
The alternative is you don't make the surplus in the first place, instead of building a farming district you build a mining or energy one.
Well, here is what I tend to always do
1) immediately use map the stars policy
2) build extra science ships to explore
3) build a temple to get unity
4) pick few high value star system for extra resources
5) build a 2nd building on my base
6) claim a star system with a colony planet, colonize it
7) finish discovery tree, get imperial ambitions
8) start spending built up influence by expanding fast with 2 constructors.
sometimes i mix order up a bit, but i dont expand quickly until i get imperial ambitions for 20% reduction of influence costs
usually only takes a few years. in first years i am focusing on getting a colony and EPG going, because what i want, more than star systems, is pop growth. early colony dramatically increases pop growth, as does early EPG, but i wasnt really sure which was better early colony or early EPG. Still not 100% sure. it might just depend on the game and how close my neighbor is. If i find an AI close, i will 100% go for alloy factory. If i have plenty of room, and cant find a decent colony world within 1 jump of home system, will probably go for farm.
influence isnt the limiting factor so much as how many alloys i have for science ships and colony ship and how much food i have for EPG.
By building alloy factory to rush an early colony and making my 3rd farm there, i can still get EPG, but it takes longer to happen. I can do a faster EPG if i build a farm on homeworld first, but only if i put off that alloy factory. Thus the dilema.
Better to avoid both for the early game.
Colonizing a new planet gives 1 (2 w/ Expansion which you should have IMO) pops immediately and a permanent +50% growth rate (eventually 100%). If saving on food and potentially buying energy (thereby avoiding an energy district and running more alloys or something) gets you a planet even 1 year earlier than otherwise, you'll be ahead in pop growth. Probably 6 months ahead is enough to break even with all factors considered.
Do you always have a construction ship and colony ship ready on location to build an outpost and start the colony the day a system with a habitable planet is surveyed? Or do you spend 3 months getting there with the construction ship, 1 month waiting for alloy, then a year waiting to build the colony ship and another 6 months for the colony ship to get there? Get more raw resources on hand quicker and work on smoothing these things out to streamline and accelerate your colony grabbing.
Colonizing a new planet gives 1 (2 w/ Expansion which you should have IMO) pops immediately and a permanent +50% growth rate (eventually 100%). If saving on food and potentially buying energy (thereby avoiding an energy district and running more alloys or something) gets you a planet even 1 year earlier than otherwise, you'll be ahead in pop growth. Probably 6 months ahead is enough to break even with all factors considered.
Do you always have a construction ship and colony ship ready on location to build an outpost and start the colony the day a system with a habitable planet is surveyed? Or do you spend 3 months getting there with the construction ship, 1 month waiting for alloy, then a year waiting to build the colony ship and another 6 months for the colony ship to get there? Get more raw resources on hand quicker and work on smoothing these things out to streamline and accelerate your colony grabbing.
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nah i claim and build star base before colony ship obviously. my early game alloys are consumed by science ships. what i mean is that i am not in a rush to claim all the star systems i can, so i have minerals left for buildings rather than having to spend everything on mining stations.
(edit) i only rush to get first colony asap, because you get that immediate pop growth boost. I will relocate homeworld pop to my colony to get admin to get rid of -50%. Basically, before year 10, i definately want to have 2 worlds with EPG for a combined growth rate of 7.5/month. there is usually a habitable world right next door if you have settings set that way. It is only a question of surveying it quickly, claiming, colonizing it, moving 10 people on it asap.
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Since farming districts are more productive, I'd build the farm. Honestly, the only reason I build generators at all is so I interact less with the market.
As for the alloy/farm question, I'd usually go for the alloys. At that stage of the game I don't know for sure how much fleet I'm going to need soon, and if you don't have the alloys to build that fleet, you're committed to not having it even if you do end up needing it.
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A lot of us probably haven't looked into that since colony ships used to be too expensive to keep around.
it is a matter of timing, I try to be already building the colony ship when the starbase is starting construction
i want to make it there as fast as reasonably possible. but its not like you dont have plenty of time to plan, you scientist has to first survey it, takes a while, you see the planet before it is surveyed, can tell if its is decent and right type, you send in constructor while its being surveyed, so it arrives at about time survey is done. You start a colony ship during that process. It doesn't have to be on hand, and you dont have to wait till you have starbase, a little timing within a margin of a few months is not that hard. Especially if it is only 1 jump from homeworld
Have you been lucky with exploration early on to get your first colony(ies)? Then saving alloys to start you first colony ship build is a way to go. While you build one, science vessel is mapping system-in-question, and constructor is docked at the star to build up ASAP when alloys + scouting + influence allow. 1.5 pop growth on fresh colonies, plus 1 (or 2) pops as soon as colony established. Hard to fight with either EPG or NP. And growth isn't affected by habitability. Plus food can be sold too, to fuel further expansion.
luck has nothing to do with it when you have 3-4 exploration ships. You will find a habitable world quickly if you have settings to guaranted habitable worlds on map creation. This is why i prioritize science ships and map of stars policy over grabbing star systems as fast as i can.
It also goes back to my thoughs in a different thread, i consider maximizing pop growth more important than maximizing number of mining stations, thus, i have plenty of pop.
i am currently playing a grand admiral, scaling on game, habitable worlds set to 1x, as gospel of masses mega corp. made friends with my neighbors, claimed a small group of stars, have 5 planets population of 86, year 2242. Still under admin cap.
My combined population growth is already to the point where I am struggling a bit to give everyone jobs. If I didn't use clerks, i would actually be a bit screwed.
I find that the first thing I build in the shipyard is a second science ship, with energy credits reserved for the scientist.
I get a third one built quickly, but only if I see that there is another branch for it to explore. (In smaller galaxies, there may not be enough open paths to justify a third one.)
I find exploration crucial. I’d spam more science ships, but geography and alloys are a limiting factor. I like claiming systems quickly, and I like colonizing quickly, but that’s alloys you can’t spend on other things.
I do agre on pre building colony ships. when feasible, that colony ship is on the way as the system is claimed.
I get a third one built quickly, but only if I see that there is another branch for it to explore. (In smaller galaxies, there may not be enough open paths to justify a third one.)
I find exploration crucial. I’d spam more science ships, but geography and alloys are a limiting factor. I like claiming systems quickly, and I like colonizing quickly, but that’s alloys you can’t spend on other things.
I do agre on pre building colony ships. when feasible, that colony ship is on the way as the system is claimed.
Luck has some value even with 4 explorers. In one of my games I've got lvl8 anomaly on size 21 potential colonization target just next system from my homeworld. 3 years researching anomaly led to conclusion it was a holo projector. Puff! Next colonizable system is 3 jumps away and out of specie's comfort zone.
It's amusing to me that you and I have basically the exact same start strategy despite the fact that you're playing a megacorp and I'm almost always playing a regular organic empire that is mechanist+technocracy. I think it says something about the current meta of the game. I feel like the first tradition tree gets unlocked *very* quickly compared to what was the case pre Le-Guin if you build your unity producing building, so its worthwhile to "rush" because of the benefits. I also feel like I am having to think alot more about where and how to expand, which is a nice change of pace from pre Le-Guin. It used to be I built 3 science ships max and that was sufficient, now, like you, I am rushing them out to discover as much as possible about what's out there to plan my expansion strategy and thinking alot more carefully about which systems to build a starbase in.
I generally don't research anomalies that will take longer than a year for this reason in the early game. They'll still be around, most likely, later, and my scientists can level just fine doing surveys and more regular anomalies while I get what I really need most from them: information about the galaxy around me. Everything else is secondary to that. Although I guess when its in one of you guaranteed colony systems right next to your home world... well, sure, there's always *some* luck involved...
Very happy to discover this thread. I smacked my forehead when reading the 13.33 pops/planet figure, as it means you shouldn't start NP until your first colony is established. But after that I'm under 13.33/planet for at least twenty years (got very lucky this game - five nearby habitable worlds before I met neighbours). As soon as it passes 13.33 I'll switch it off and go to EPG.
Thanks all.
Thanks all.