Encourage national focuses of Majors as a minor?

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Fenrirwolf

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The most obvious case would be Poland and Germany, how does the german ai react if i try to align myself to the axis as poland, both in historical and ahistorical mode, in regards to their national focuses. I can see myself already getting "danzig or war"d instead of "danzig for slovakia" by germany and throwing the game out the window. Are there ways to clearly signal to the ai to go down specific parts of their focus-tree that concern you? i know theres the "become facist" national focus for minors (paraphrased), but its not guranteed that germany then goes for danzig for slovakia vs danzig or war, or is it?
 
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Fenrirwolf

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I'd assume that Germany would be more friendly with a fascist Poland, especially if it willingly surrenders Danzig.
thats not my point tough. germany has two national focuses, danzig or war and danzig for slovakia, and they require different routes in the tree and they cant take both, so it would be good to know if i can influence their choice beforehand as poland.
 

KingRolan

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thats not my point tough. germany has two national focuses, danzig or war and danzig for slovakia, and they require different routes in the tree and they cant take both, so it would be good to know if i can influence their choice beforehand as poland.

Hopefully. It sounds plausible enough, if one is determined to have friendly relations with Germany.
 

Oof

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I'd assume that Germany would be more friendly with a fascist Poland, especially if it willingly surrenders Danzig.

I doubt that. Hitler was upset big time after the Treaty of Munich because in his opinion the Allies cheated him out of his war. Basically he was looking for a war and after the treaty he occupied what was left of Czechoslovakia in 1939. In that respect the demand for Danizg was another way to get the war he wanted. Though he didn’t expect the Allies to act.
And don’t forget the fact that Hitler really hated the Poles. Much of the German moves in the late thirties were motivated by Hitler’s hatred. That’s why Czechoslovakia disappeared from the European map within a year of the Treaty of Munich and why Poland and the USSR were attacked.

But let’s say in HOI4 you’ve got a fascist Poland friendly to Germany. If it would surrender Danzig to Germany I reckon the moment this happens is key. If this is after March 1939 I doubt a friendly Poland would surrender Danzig cause by that time Germany already has shown the world it’s word doesn’t mean a thing! If this would happen before the Treaty of Munich it would be a realistic move in game if, with the handing over of Danzig, Poland joins the Axis. But historically I don’t find it realistic at all, but it will give players more options for a non historical route.
 
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KingRolan

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I doubt that. Hitler was upset big time after the Treaty of Munich because in his opinion the Allies cheated him out of his war. Basically he was looking for a war and after the treaty he occupied what was left of Czechoslovakia in 1939. In that respect the demand for Danizg was another way to get the war he wanted. Though he didn’t expect the Allies to act.
And don’t forget the fact that Hitler really hated the Poles. Much of the German moves in the late thirties were motivated by Hitler’s hatred. That’s why Czechoslovakia disappeared from the European map within a year of the Treaty of Munich and why Poland and the USSR were attacked.

But let’s say in HOI4 you’ve got a fascist Poland friendly to Germany. If it would surrender Danzig to Germany I reckon the moment this happens is key. If this is after March 1939 I doubt a friendly Poland would surrender Danzig cause by that time Germany already has shown the world it’s word doesn’t mean a thing! If this would happen before the Treaty of Munich it would be a realistic move in game if, with the handing over of Danzig, Poland joins the Axis. But historically I don’t find it realistic at all, but it will give players more options for a non historical route.

Good point about Hitler's irrational attitudes. However, I don't see what is so wrong with allowing more options for an ahistorical playstyle, as long as everything remains reasonably plausible. I want the ability to ask "what if?" about major events in history.
 

Calahir

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The most obvious case would be Poland and Germany, how does the german ai react if i try to align myself to the axis as poland, both in historical and ahistorical mode, in regards to their national focuses. I can see myself already getting "danzig or war"d instead of "danzig for slovakia" by germany and throwing the game out the window. Are there ways to clearly signal to the ai to go down specific parts of their focus-tree that concern you? i know theres the "become facist" national focus for minors (paraphrased), but its not guranteed that germany then goes for danzig for slovakia vs danzig or war, or is it?


Danzig for Slovakia? Why would Poland want Slovakia? Historically only a part of Slovakia (Spiš and Orava) belonged to Poland so claims to that region might be valid. But the rest? I can hardly imagine Polish willingness to trade claims to Gdańsk (don't forget it was a free city!) and sovereignty over Pomorze for Slovakia (especially since it would lead to a confict with Hungary - the only country in the region with friendly attitude toward Poland). More rational promise from German side would be Lithuania and eventually a part of Ukraine and Belarus, after the defeat of USSR but it is very unlikely Poland would have accepted it too.
 

Nelfe

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Danzig for Slovakia? Why would Poland want Slovakia? Historically only a part of Slovakia (Spiš and Orava) belonged to Poland so claims to that region might be valid. But the rest? I can hardly imagine Polish willingness to trade claims to Gdańsk (don't forget it was a free city!) and sovereignty over Pomorze for Slovakia (especially since it would lead to a confict with Hungary - the only country in the region with friendly attitude toward Poland). More rational promise from German side would be Lithuania and eventually a part of Ukraine and Belarus, after the defeat of USSR but it is very unlikely Poland would have accepted it too.

Danzig for Slovakia is actually a national focus of Germany, which allow you to trade the free city of Danzig against Slovakia once Tchecoslovakia is annexed. I think it's a good alternative.
 
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Fenrirwolf

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Danzig for Slovakia? Why would Poland want Slovakia? Historically only a part of Slovakia (Spiš and Orava) belonged to Poland so claims to that region might be valid. But the rest? I can hardly imagine Polish willingness to trade claims to Gdańsk (don't forget it was a free city!) and sovereignty over Pomorze for Slovakia (especially since it would lead to a confict with Hungary - the only country in the region with friendly attitude toward Poland). More rational promise from German side would be Lithuania and eventually a part of Ukraine and Belarus, after the defeat of USSR but it is very unlikely Poland would have accepted it too.
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germany and poland had good relations, however during the conflict with czechslovakia poland sided with the allies, not with germany, and lets just say hitler was not amused, revoked the german gurantee on poland, and later attacked.
point of this thread is to ask the devs if the ai would recognice my intention as poland to join the axis and thus go for danzig for slovakia, and not danzig or war, and possible similiar cases (war plan white and the unholy alliance of the us could be another example, so german ai does not go for the alliance with the ussr, tough a facist us crusade against communism with italy, gb and france against facist germany and communist ussr would be a hillarious scenario )
 

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I think it should be Danzig for Lithuania instead of Slovakia. I want to give Slovakia to Hungary. But honestly, I don't think it will/should be possible to become a strong ally of Germany as Poland, since they stand in the way of Lebensraum and whatnot. Had Poland given up the Corridor, I always figured that they would have met the same fate of Czechoslovakia: dismembered, isolated, and eventually occupied.
 
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Fenrirwolf

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I think it should be Danzig for Lithuania instead of Slovakia. I want to give Slovakia to Hungary. But honestly, I don't think it will/should be possible to become a strong ally of Germany as Poland, since they stand in the way of Lebensraum and whatnot.
not really, they have not enough control over lithuania, slovakia would become independent if they dont go to poland, and while they might not be the strongest ally, they are a usefull starting position against the ussr. if i join poland as the axis, germany can avoid war with the west completly (unless france initiates during rhineland or austria, or czechoslovacia acts up), and focus on the ussr. poland was not the goal of "lebensraum" in any way, they just stood in the middle.
note that this scenario is not pulled out of pdx ***, this was hitlers original plan and well underway, until the second crisis with czech where polands president refused to support germany. Hitlers insistance on danzig was based on it being an essential part of germany (and thus important to his propaganda), and the need for either an exchange or war with poland was the prohibition of any vote to rejoin the german empire via the treaty of versailles, even tough most of it population was german until 1945 and onwards.
 

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not really, they have not enough control over lithuania, slovakia would become independent if they dont go to poland, and while they might not be the strongest ally, they are a usefull starting position against the ussr. if i join poland as the axis, germany can avoid war with the west completly (unless france initiates during rhineland or austria, or czechoslovacia acts up), and focus on the ussr. poland was not the goal of "lebensraum" in any way, they just stood in the middle.
note that this scenario is not pulled out of pdx ***, this was hitlers original plan and well underway, until the second crisis with czech where polands president refused to support germany. Hitlers insistance on danzig was based on it being an essential part of germany (and thus important to his propaganda), and the need for either an exchange or war with poland was the prohibition of any vote to rejoin the german empire via the treaty of versailles, even tough most of it population was german until 1945 and onwards.
Where to begin...

1. Germany DID offer Lithuania to Poland in exchange for Danzig. Offering Slovakia to Poland makes little sense because Poland had no political or economic ties to it, nor did they ever want it (whereas Hungary did). That's not hypothetical, that's history.

2. Yes, Poland was a useful starting position against the USSR. Which is why it was essential that Germany occupy it and exert full control over it.

3. I don't agree that Poland "was not the goal of lebensraum in any way". Generalplan Ost envisioned the complete conquest of Central/Eastern Europe. I get the feeling that I can't go until all the details on this forum, but Poland was included in this plan. I don't see how this can be denied.

4. There seems to be a prevailing view here that Hitler had nothing against Poland but only flew into a fury when Poland supported the West in the Munich Conference. I would argue that Poland did no such thing. Here's an exact quote by Daladier: "Not only can we not count on Polish support but we have no faith that Poland will not strike us in the back." As well as this, Generalplan Ost was the cornerstone of Hitler's foreign policy. Everything Hitler did prior to and during World War II was simply preparation for meeting this goal. From the very beginning of his political career, he stated this again and again and again. Logically, this means that the subordination and conquest of Poland was an inevitable outcome, and that any arrangement between Poland and Germany would be purely temporary.

5. Hitler's insistence on Danzig was not primarily propaganda, it was economically essential for both Germany and Poland. Not having a direct land connection with East Prussia was an economic drain for Germany, but Poland felt it needed access to the sea to maintain economic independence. If Poland were willing to give up Danzig, they would have demanded sea access from somewhere else. Lithuania fits the bill perfectly.

My conclusion is that if you, as Poland, want to ally with Germany, the end result is that you will probably be stabbed in the back, just like Czechoslovakia.
 

Fenrirwolf

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Where to begin...

1. Germany DID offer Lithuania to Poland in exchange for Danzig. Offering Slovakia to Poland makes little sense because Poland had no political or economic ties to it, nor did they ever want it (whereas Hungary did). That's not hypothetical, that's history.

2. Yes, Poland was a useful starting position against the USSR. Which is why it was essential that Germany occupy it and exert full control over it.

3. I don't agree that Poland "was not the goal of lebensraum in any way". Generalplan Ost envisioned the complete conquest of Central/Eastern Europe. I get the feeling that I can't go until all the details on this forum, but Poland was included in this plan. I don't see how this can be denied.

4. There seems to be a prevailing view here that Hitler had nothing against Poland but only flew into a fury when Poland supported the West in the Munich Conference. I would argue that Poland did no such thing. Here's an exact quote by Daladier: "Not only can we not count on Polish support but we have no faith that Poland will not strike us in the back." As well as this, Generalplan Ost was the cornerstone of Hitler's foreign policy. Everything Hitler did prior to and during World War II was simply preparation for meeting this goal. From the very beginning of his political career, he stated this again and again and again. Logically, this means that the subordination and conquest of Poland was an inevitable outcome, and that any arrangement between Poland and Germany would be purely temporary.

5. Hitler's insistence on Danzig was not primarily propaganda, it was economically essential for both Germany and Poland. Not having a direct land connection with East Prussia was an economic drain for Germany, but Poland felt it needed access to the sea to maintain economic independence. If Poland were willing to give up Danzig, they would have demanded sea access from somewhere else. Lithuania fits the bill perfectly.

My conclusion is that if you, as Poland, want to ally with Germany, the end result is that you will probably be stabbed in the back, just like Czechoslovakia.

1. Lithuania was not in germanys sphere of influence, and "giving" it to poland would go hand in hand with 2. as it means war with the ussr, then with poland on its side. in game terms (and thats the thing im talking about here first and foremost) slovakia is an incentive to poland, who would get lithuania in the peace conference, while poland becomes more or less the puppet of germany slovakia became irl. with the danzig for slovakia treaty, full control over poland is more or less guranteed.
3. so hungary, slovakia, bulgaria and romania are not part of central/eastern europe (lets not even mention germanys good relations with greece before italy got their ass handed to them), but danemark, netherlands, belgium and norway are? 0france? north africa? dont confuse the general goal of something like generalplan ost with reality, the big enemy was the ussr, not poland (or hungary, romania etc.), and every "peacefull" integration into what we call the axis today eases the way for war with the ussr without risking war with the west. i wont comment on what happens afterwards as alternative history outside of games (and that would take place after ww2 and with that hoi4) doesnt interest me , so your "conclusion" is pretty much unnecessary as it is not what i asked in this thread.
4. wow, one french guy, of mediocre importance in the context of the whole second world war and its buildup, doesnt trust poland, and because poland did not support the allies or ,at the very least, did not not support germany, germany did not cancel their gurantee and broke off their (relativley) good relations with poland and invaded them a few months later, and since that french guy didnt trust the poles, france did not come to their aid when germany attacked. and if you think this is a strawman, please enlight me how i should interpret your 4th point differently.
5. yes, danzig was also important from an economic persepective, but i would still argue that the revocation of the treaty of versailes is of higher importance in full context (germany had way larger financial problems than that), and danzig in particular as dividing germany into two and not only giving a city/region to poland thats heavily populated by germans, been with germany since a bit less than a century and is part of prussian (and in conclusion german) history all the way up to teutonic order (who reformed into prussia and then unioned with brandenburg), and the prohibition of a vote to return either germany or to fully integrate to poland (this whole free city thing) ensured that the treaty will lead to eventual conflict in one way or the other, though which ones more important might just be subjective.

also, next time you number your arguments, please ensure that you dont spread one argument over multiple points (1 and 5 are essentialy one argument or are at least better addressable as one, while 3 and 4 are also the same argumet split in two parts without any real need). not meant to be a personal attack on you , but this is really annoying since my anwers to these points correlate to each other. also, keep in my mind that we are talking about a videogame here, and the possiblities within it, because i certainly do, and dont try to read any political affinity in my posts, you wont find one that represents my ideology particulary accurate, unless you count my perspectives on gamedesign as ideology
 

Sweed Raver

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germany and poland had good relations, however during the conflict with czechslovakia poland sided with the allies, not with germany, and lets just say hitler was not amused, revoked the german gurantee on poland, and later attacked.
Exactly. Somebody else posted that Hitler wanted the war already during the treaty of Munich, and got upset because he did not get one. What you wrote is instead actually why he got upset. Almost everything he did speaks against him actually wanting a war, but rather playing a game of poker trying to bluff his way out. You can think of it as in the EU4 mechanic, threaten war. Each time he succesfully threatened one of his neighbors, he grew more proud of himself (One of the seven deadly sins, also known as hubris), and reaffirmed his beliefs that the Allied countries were unwilling to fight it out in another war.

You can think of what he tried to accomplish as in following the art of war: "Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting". He assumed they would all yield under his threats, thus never having to fight.

The problem for him was that the Allied and Soviet countries had read the same texts: "All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near."
 

KingRolan

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You can think of what he tried to accomplish as in following the art of war: "Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting". He assumed they would all yield under his threats, thus never having to fight.

Unfortunately for him, reluctance to fight does not always equal weakness.
 

LordOfWar16

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thats not my point tough. germany has two national focuses, danzig or war and danzig for slovakia, and they require different routes in the tree and they cant take both, so it would be good to know if i can influence their choice beforehand as poland.
of course you can influence their decisions. If you have good relations with them they are less likely to take a aggressive route against you. As germany if you improve relations with the soviets for example they are more likely to go the anti-capitalist route and accept an unholy alliance offer for example.