Encourage free thought

[kalauer]

Don't know whether it has been pointed out before, but to me it seems that this policy is somewhat out of place.

While in general, it sounds like a good idea, it can lead to the counter-intuitive situation where especially those empires that have a high bonus on ethic divergence (i.e. lowering it) can use this policy without harm. Thus it boosts research for e.g. spiritualist empires, somewhat offsetting the research bonus of materialist empires.

In a very simple approach, you can compare the fanatic version (wiki from today's version, leaving aside additional boni building cost and growth time):

materislists:
+15% research output

spiritualists:
-30% ethic divergence
including "free thought":
-15% ethic divergence
+10%research speed


Now let's assume that output and speed are somewhat equal in value (as I can not think of a really relevant difference in this context). However, while ethic divergence is an empire modifier, research output is a pop modifier. Still, if you go for a good divergence value, you WILL have spiritualistic pops as spiritualistic empire, so this differentiation is not relevant either.

My preliminary conclusion (for you to challenge) is, that spiritualists can offset the materialistic research bonus with this policy, because they can easily afford the higher ethic divergence. Only relevant costs are influence points, which (in my experience) are plentiful as spiritualists since you do not have to suppress factions for long (safe special cases e.g. spiritualist xenophobes).

I would therefore suggest to reduce the research bonus to 5%, possibly lowering ethic divergence impact as well. Or replace the divergence malus for something else, making it a viable choice for empires not specifically going for low divergence.

Opinions on that?

 

[Tacticus101]

I usually find it a nice little bonus to take at the start, but it quickly stops being worth it once you start expanding or get later in the game when you have more research bonus'.

 

[kalauer]

I usually find it a nice little bonus to take at the start, but it quickly stops being worth it once you start expanding or get later in the game when you have more research bonus'.

That was my experience too, until I played a spiritualist empire with -50% ethic divergence due to ethos and government form (plus more later due to rigged research). This empire can easily keep the policy activated the entire game.

 

[GloatingSwine]

Anyone can keep it active the whole game.

Just take Conformist for a free 10% research all game for one trait point.

Or Fanatic Individualist and never care about ethics again.

 

[kalauer]

Anyone can keep it active the whole game.

Just take Conformist for a free 10% research all game for one trait point.

Or Fanatic Individualist and never care about ethics again.

Of course anyone can do it (but not everyone ). It is not a secret wunderwaffe. My point is that there is a build that should be less effective at research (spiritual, opposite of the ethos with research bonus), but can almost completely alleviate it with this policy. Also, you'd probably want the ethic divergence to be empire wide; while this admittedly depends on other factors like purge and slavery policies.

edit: About the individualists; while I believe this ethos needed rework, I do assume it will be reworked again, because as you pointed out, it short-circuits an entire game mechanic maybe a little bit too much.

 

[SuperGeek89]

Of course anyone can do it (but not everyone ). It is not a secret wunderwaffe. My point is that there is a build that should be less effective at research (spiritual, opposite of the ethos with research bonus), but can almost completely alleviate it with this policy. Also, you'd probably want the ethic divergence to be empire wide; while this admittedly depends on other factors like purge and slavery policies.

Why exactly should Spiritual be less effective at research exactly? I agree that some thing, like artificial intelligence or genetic engineering, should be harder/impossible for Spiritualist empires research but not that by simply being spiritual/religious they are worse at critical thinking or reasoning.

edit: About the individualists; while I believe this ethos needed rework, I do assume it will be reworked again, because as you pointed out, it short-circuits an entire game mechanic maybe a little bit too much.

Doesn't Fanatic Spiritualist also short circuit the mechanic, especially when combined with Conformist and Collectivist?

 

[GloatingSwine]

Doesn't Fanatic Spiritualist also short circuit the mechanic, especially when combined with Conformist and Collectivist?

Not as completely.

Fanatic Spiritualist greatly increases the radius you can expand to and maintain stability, but Fanatic Individualist basically makes it infinite because you simply don't care about ethics any more because the happines maluses are so small for even dedicated opposites, you only have to deal with Xenophobes on very mixed worlds (which you can do with Xenophile and the Visitor Centre).

 

[Kryndude]

I usually find it a nice little bonus to take at the start, but it quickly stops being worth it once you start expanding or get later in the game when you have more research bonus'.

I find it to be exact opposite. Early on Influence is too valuable to trade for a few months worth of research. Even if I get the tech faster I won't be able to colonize all the planets I want due to lack of Influence, so I start using the policy once I'm somewhat done with early expansion.

 

[MechaThumper]

You can get -10% ethics divergence and 10% research speed with an edict as a materialist too. Goes up to 15% research with their special building so by that comparison it's almost the same.

There's one thing that you are forgetting and that is the influence cost. You can use it better elsewhere.

 

[UberWaffe]

There's one thing that you are forgetting and that is the influence cost. You can use it better elsewhere.

This. The influence cost is an important factor in the equation.

 

[kalauer]

Why exactly should Spiritual be less effective at research exactly? I agree that some thing, like artificial intelligence or genetic engineering, should be harder/impossible for Spiritualist empires research but not that by simply being spiritual/religious they are worse at critical thinking or reasoning.
Doesn't Fanatic Spiritualist also short circuit the mechanic, especially when combined with Conformist and Collectivist?

I didn't want to go normative here, hence I don't say it "should". It is just my impression that spiritualists are designed as the opposite as particular good researchers (i.e. materialists in the current ethos system). Still, they can get this bonus for only half of their main ethos bonus (ethic divergence).

I also did not want to get into the special buildings as both ethos have them and they are just another boost to the base bonus (research or ethic divergence).

Plus, and that is the next point, the influence:

This. The influence cost is an important factor in the equation.

I did not forget about the influence. I mentioned that in my experience with a build going very deep into ethic divergence, influence is abundant due to the fact that rebels do hardly exist. They change ethos very fast and thus you rarely need to suppress factions, which saves lots of influence. Just as anyone's, this experience might be anecdotical; maybe I just got lucky with habitable planet positions, saving lots of influence too.

Plus, I believe I did forget to mention and it occurs to me only now: The build I had (Divine mandate) also reduces edict costs. In late stages, this edict only costs 0.55 influence. But even without these modifiers, it comes at the price of only 1 outpost.

 

[UberWaffe]

Plus, I believe I did forget to mention and it occurs to me only now: The build I had (Divine mandate) also reduces edict costs. In late stages, this edict only costs 0.55 influence. But even without these modifiers, it comes at the price of only 1 outpost.

I suppose it does depend on your starting situation, but in most of my games I have found that more minerals early on trumps research.
(I often wait for minerals stockpiles to build. I rarely wait specifically on research.)
I am not particularly fussed about influence late game, but in early game those initial colonies and that possible one frontier outpost in a rich system can make the world of difference.
Early minerals means faster colony build-up and thus faster research.

In short, early minerals and energy builds momentum that usually carries through to the end. Early minerals easiest from space mining. Space mining from territory. Territory from influence.

 

[Space Chicken]

Edict is ok, but just should be blocked from spiritualist. Free Thought and Spiritualist society combination just doesn't make sense.

 

[kalauer]

I suppose it does depend on your starting situation, but in most of my games I have found that more minerals early on trumps research.
(I often wait for minerals stockpiles to build. I rarely wait specifically on research.)
I am not particularly fussed about influence late game, but in early game those initial colonies and that possible one frontier outpost in a rich system can make the world of difference.
Early minerals means faster colony build-up and thus faster research.

In short, early minerals and energy builds momentum that usually carries through to the end. Early minerals easiest from space mining. Space mining from territory. Territory from influence.

I am quite unsure whether I agree. It certainly does seem to be easy to spacemine. Still, when you do the math on the payback, planet based mines are just more efficient (if you have the pops to work them). For example when you take the usual +2 minerals for 90, it takes 45 months to break even. You get the same for 60 on a planet (plus boni from tile or adjacency). Upgrade of the mining network is another thing . And yet, planet potential is limited so you will go for space mining anyway. So it is not so easy to decide in a general rule. Which is a good thing. I do fully agree though that early on, minerals are most important.

Up to the point where you want to catch your first AI-empire. Seems to me they are much more resilient against low-tech corvettes since the latest update. At the moment, I really want at least T2 weapons and spaceports to try this (against the first enemy, after that, it gets much easier).

Regarding early research, space mining seems to be better since +3/+4 is encountered more often than it is for minerals, at least that is my impression.

But at the very beginning (where I assume the normal way is to settle 2-3 planets), you normally need only 30 influence per planet. If you really have to take this one holy world for 250 influence, it certainly can paralyze you for years. But I like that this decision is available.

edit: And in planet terms, 1 influence per month means 1 planet in approx. 3 years. If you are colonizing at a speed where this is relevant, you certainly are lagging in research anyway and can't care about it. So yes, in that case, you probably would deactivate the edict.

edit2: @Space Chicken : I guess the disagrees are supposed to state that there are societies imaginable that combine free thought and spiritualism. While this might be the case, I would argue that in the current implementation (!), where ethic divergence is reduced by spiritualism, this is a no-fit. Thus free thought is not compatible with low ethic divergence (just as it is represented in the edict).
And if one explicitly states that spiritualism constitutes low ethic divergence, I feel it is justified to say THIS spiritualism does not go well with free thoughts.