Enable upgrades in the building queue

[unmerged(57016)]

Hi everyone!

Is there any way to make the units already under production upgradeble?
I mean if I order a queue och 99 infantry divisions by 1936, it will be the same model until the run is finnished.
It would make more sence that when I research Infantry 1939 the units left in the queue will be changed to 1939 infantry.

Is there any way to mod this?
If not, please implement it in a future patch, I'd love it.

 

[theokrat]

That would not be too good i think, actually it the drawback of producing units in advance. On the other hand it might finally make drafted army usefull...

 

[Borsook]

While it might make sense, it would destroy the game balance completly. And no, it's not possible in the game right now.

 

[stabsoffizier]

It would hardly make any sense. When building series in HoI2 that does not only mean 'stuff is produced' but also the planning involved, the allocated ressources, the fitting machines used. You can't just tell a company "ok, instead of that straight armor platrs, go and produced sloped ones from today on!"
The 'reason' for serial builds giving bonuses is that long time planning can be done that reduces the cost over time. It's just like deciding to only eat noodles every day from now on, buy 100kg noodles today and the next 200 days you are fine, no further planning needed. Now go out and decide to cook another meal every day, that's costly and time intensive!

 

[Orm]

It would hardly make any sense. When building series in HoI2 that does not only mean 'stuff is produced' but also the planning involved, the allocated ressources, the fitting machines used. You can't just tell a company "ok, instead of that straight armor platrs, go and produced sloped ones from today on!"
The 'reason' for serial builds giving bonuses is that long time planning can be done that reduces the cost over time. It's just like deciding to only eat noodles every day from now on, buy 100kg noodles today and the next 200 days you are fine, no further planning needed. Now go out and decide to cook another meal every day, that's costly and time intensive!

But on the other hand, much of what a division needs would not be changed so much and in real life not at the same time. There is also the cost and time of researching the new models, which, it has been said, should be considered partially as a cost for re-tooling.
I like the idea, and if the queue upgrade also removed part (half maybe) of the accumulated gearing bonus, it would not be very balance breaking or unrealistic.

 

[theokrat]

But on the other hand, much of what a division needs would not be changed so much and in real life not at the same time. There is also the cost and time of researching the new models, which, it has been said, should be considered partially as a cost for re-tooling.
I like the idea, and if the queue upgrade also removed part (half maybe) of the accumulated gearing bonus, it would not be very balance breaking or unrealistic.

New Guns, new missiles, new training in parts. Well except lets say the uniform what exactly stays the same in the equipment of troops? Ok compass, maps, bottle etc... But well the bulk of stuff should be new i guess...

 

[Orm]

New Guns, new missiles, new missles, new training in parts. Well except lets say the uniform what exactly stays the same in the equipment of troops? Ok compass, maps, bottle etc... But well the bulk of stuff should be new i guess...

I thought the training was handled by the doctrines. I don't know what missles are, so I can't answer that.
The thing is that it isn't very realistic the way it is now either. If you build say a series of 5 1939 Infantry, for the last one you have a gearing bonus of 25 (right?), so that means the soldiers in the last division are better learners than the ones in the first, that they use less supplies while learning, they need fewer guns, what? When the last one is done, you start a new series immediately, still 1939 model, and the gearing bonus is gone. What happened, the training regiments forgot how to train the troops, production of all necessary equipment was stopped and all machinery scrapped?

All I said was that if you were to have a queue upgrade, removing part of the gearing bonus would be necessary to make it more balanced and more realistic, you can't argue with that can you?

 

[Sharkfreak06]

I'd say serial builds represent the idea that production methods for a given product are "mastered" overtime. For example, if the US creates/trains 1 infantry division (no serial build), it will be inefficient compared to if it produced 1 after the other after the other. Overtime, the system which creates the divisions (whether it's assembly lines for guns, or infastructure used to train soldiers) will reach their maximum productivity, meaning the 10th division in a serial build will be produced much faster than 1 non-serial inf div. If you apply new training tactics, or totally new weapons and vehicles... a new "training system" will have to be implemented, meaning a new serial run would have to be started in the game.

Yea basically I'm taking Econ right now... so in a way I'm studying for the midterm tomorrow .

 

[Cavalry Scout]

It would hardly make any sense. When building series in HoI2 that does not only mean 'stuff is produced' but also the planning involved, the allocated ressources, the fitting machines used. You can't just tell a company "ok, instead of that straight armor platrs, go and produced sloped ones from today on!"
The 'reason' for serial builds giving bonuses is that long time planning can be done that reduces the cost over time. It's just like deciding to only eat noodles every day from now on, buy 100kg noodles today and the next 200 days you are fine, no further planning needed. Now go out and decide to cook another meal every day, that's costly and time intensive!

Using your example, to be correct, you would have to of ordered 100kg of noodels to be delivered at certain intervals. So I dont see why its so hard to call the noodle company and tell them 3 months into the order that you want the last 9 months to be Chicken flavored noodles and pay the cost to upgrade them. It absolutely can be modeled into the engine and it can happen in real life. As long as the product isnt finished it can always be modified prior to delivery. Its not that hard.

 

[KingMississippi]

Perhaps instead of just losing gearing bonus you add IC to the cost to build. For example you are building a 99 serial of '36 infantry divisions. You than learn '39 Infantry Div. so you would than upgrade your current queues for say 10% ic and lose 1/2 of the gear bonus. So say that 99 serial has a 30% gearing bonus and it costs 7.0 ic to build each division. Upon upgrade to 1939 divisions you now get 15% bonus and it costs 7.7 ic for each division. The extra cost is absorbed by how quickly you get back into full gearing bonus and you still have the ability to cancel the chain and restart if you want.

 

[Dragomir]

Using your example, to be correct, you would have to of ordered 100kg of noodels to be delivered at certain intervals. So I dont see why its so hard to call the noodle company and tell them 3 months into the order that you want the last 9 months to be Chicken flavored noodles and pay the cost to upgrade them. It absolutely can be modeled into the engine and it can happen in real life. As long as the product isnt finished it can always be modified prior to delivery. Its not that hard.

That would only be true if it weren't for the fact that to model the comparison properly, that noodle company has invested in noodle making machinery specifically oriented to making that first set of noodles. They don't have anything to make chicken noodles, they don't know how to make chicken noodles.

If you migrate from Inf'36 to Inf'39 in Germany for example, your companies have to switch their machines from producing MP18s to MP38s and P38s, which requires the modification of not just the machining tools for the guns, but also their magazines, magazine pouches, etc etc. The higher up in the tiers you get, the worse this becomes. You can't just instantly switch over a 'gun factory' from one type of machining/building to another. A factory for Chauchats could never in ANY way hope to produce a P210. You have to retool or buy whole new machinery, possibly even retool the ammunition...

 

[theokrat]

I thought the training was handled by the doctrines. I don't know what missles are, so I can't answer that.
The thing is that it isn't very realistic the way it is now either. If you build say a series of 5 1939 Infantry, for the last one you have a gearing bonus of 25 (right?), so that means the soldiers in the last division are better learners than the ones in the first, that they use less supplies while learning, they need fewer guns, what? When the last one is done, you start a new series immediately, still 1939 model, and the gearing bonus is gone. What happened, the training regiments forgot how to train the troops, production of all necessary equipment was stopped and all machinery scrapped?

All I said was that if you were to have a queue upgrade, removing part of the gearing bonus would be necessary to make it more balanced and more realistic, you can't argue with that can you?

Ment missiles, no idea why i wrote it twice must have been somehow distracted . As other argued the gearing bonus is not so much for training units, but more to present the benefits from long runs of production of whatever over short runs. If you produce 10 cars total it will take much more time per car than producing 10.000 cars. The mashines have to be re arranged, workers have to be trained. The first couple of production steps have to be done before the next can take place, etc. All this will surely speed up your production. So its not that the soldiers in the last run need fewer guns, but that these are produced faster...
If you stop your production the factory will be used for something else, if you reorder INF they again need to setup for this...
Surely one can argue that not every single part is modernized in one upgrade so one should be able to only loose a part of the gearing bonus.

However i have problems with the system the way it is as well. I just think the production time is a little low. True you might be able to train a soldier in 1-2 month, but surely not the officers. Maybe thats the main reason for the German IC-whoring in the early years. Its just too easy to build an entire army from the scratch within one year...

 

[Orm]

However i have problems with the system the way it is as well. I just think the production time is a little low. True you might be able to train a soldier in 1-2 month, but surely not the officers. Maybe thats the main reason for the German IC-whoring in the early years. Its just too easy to build an entire army from the scratch within one year...

Yeah, I've thought about that too, there should be some sort of officer pool that you could invest in to get more/better officers, which could affect morale/organisation of divs. Having too few/too poor should have disastrous consequenses, like the soviets in the early part of the Finnish winter war.

 

[unmerged(22760)]

Mann,
The whole idea of the building queue is an "abstractization".
Since you have IC all around the country, you don't now which IC build a thing.
Maybe you are using your whole IC capacity of the capital to produce the consumer stuff , and the 4-5 IC needed to build an infantry division are in 4-5 different provinces.
Taking that in consideration, those factories have to cooperate, and this take time to be learn ( different companies, know-how, working methods ).
If a queue is long enough, they get used to it.
When you have researched a new model, it means the factory must change the production line, and train workers.
The workers building the old model are busy doing that and can't learn as fast as the idle workers.
Also, you can't know which workers are assigned to the new order, so the experience gained from producing 100 units of one type may be lost.

Sometime I even notice that having 2-3 queues and the IC drops, the queue will indicate different numbers, like the first 3/5, the second 2/4, and the third 0/2.

 

[Shadow86]

Hmm. Well, upgrades in serial lines seems alright, but it's not the current item the one that should be upgraded (production has already started) but the next one. And except, perhaps, in the case of foot units (infantry, mountain, marines and airborne), it seems completely unrealistic for parallel lines to be instantly upgraded. Vehicles, ships and aircraft models become entirely different machines once a new version has been researched (in most cases), so 'upgrading' often means starting from scratch.

However, a standarized way to make production upgradeable would be to allow the IC invested in the Upgrades slider to affect ongoing production, and have those items upgrade just like units in the field, without giving penalties nor bonuses to the production itself.