Empires!

[Dogia]

When Bokassa became president of the central african republic he decided to declare himself emporer! The Central African Empire lasted for about 10 years, and everyone thought it was quite funny.

It should be possible to declare yourslef emporer of anything, Britain, Corsica, a lighthouse rock. What matters it whether other people would respect such a grandiose title.

 

[Gromdal]

Ok, after alot of reading I found some intresting facts about the Eperor title and Empires in CK2 time frame. It turns out that it was much more complicated than 2 Christian empires.

Bulgaria is most intresting example.

"In 913 Simeon I of Bulgaria was crowned Emperor (Tsar) by the Patriarch of Constantinople and imperial regent Nicholas Mystikos outside of the Byzantine capital. In its final simplified form, the title read "Emperor and Autocrat of all Bulgarians and Romans".Byzantine recognition of Simeon's imperial title was revoked by the succeeding Byzantine government. The decade 914–924 was spent in destructive warfare between Byzantium and Bulgaria over this and other matters of conflict. The Bulgarian monarch, who had further irritated his Byzantine counterpart by claiming the title "Emperor of the Romans" (basileus tōn Rōmaiōn), was eventually recognized, as "Emperor of the Bulgarians" (basileus tōn Boulgarōn) by the Byzantine Emperor Romanos I Lakapenos in 924. Byzantine recognition of the imperial dignity of the Bulgarian monarch and the patriarchal dignity of the Bulgarian patriarch was again confirmed at the conclusion of permanent peace and a Bulgarian-Byzantine dynastic marriage in 927. In the meantime, the Bulgarian imperial title may have been also confirmed by the Pope... ...14th century Bulgarian literary compositions clearly denote the Bulgarian capital (Tarnovo) as a successor of Rome and Constantinople, in effect, the "Third Rome".

To me this seems that Bulgaria should definetly be Empire tier, and that the best way to obtain Empire title in game would be to find a way to force Byzantine Emperor/Holy Roman Emperor or Pope to reckognize you as such. Either by force or by diplomacy. I dont think that to be crowned Emperor should require elimination of other Empires. It should just be REALY hard to get recognized.

There are other examples like Latin Empire, Trebizond, Serbia...

Here is the description and meaning of the title and list of Empires

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor

 

[rashtrakut]

When Bokassa became president of the central african republic he decided to declare himself emporer! The Central African Empire lasted for about 10 years, and everyone thought it was quite funny.

It should be possible to declare yourslef emporer of anything, Britain, Corsica, a lighthouse rock. What matters it whether other people would respect such a grandiose title.

Google Micronations

 

[rashtrakut]

The Latin Empire, Nicea, Trebizond (and briefly Epirus) are an exception because they all claimed to be the rightful Eastern Roman Empire.

Dusan's claim in Serbia was partly derived from a claim on Constantinopole itself. Unlike the Bulgarian version it did not last very long and was largely a non factor when his son Uros died.

Bulgaria is an interesting example. The first imperial pretensions start when Justinian II gave Khan Tervel the subsidiary imperial rank of Caesar for helping the noseless one recover his throne. Bulgaria itself would not become Chirstian for another 150 years until the reign of Boris I, which started the fight over the creation of the Bulgarian patriarchate culminating in the victory of Symeon cited above. Of course the Byzantines never truly accepted Bulgaria as a real empire and they spared to effort to bring it down...It was briefly extinguished in the aftermath of the Russian invasion in the late 960s and then eliminated by Basil II after a long drawn out war in the 1110s. After that Bulgaria disappears off the map until the incompetent Angelii allowed both Serbia and Bulgaria to break away. By then the Byzantines were fighting for survival and simply did not have the ability to repeat the feats of John I and Basil II. Outside of the reign of Ivan II, the Second Bulgarian Empire was a much weaker entity...not sure how many people treated it as an "Empire"

Spain is an interesting one. The frequent usage may have been to clarify equality with the Emperor in German. Also, the Ummayuds had their own breakaway Caliphate in Spain. Perhaps that may have inspired the usage of grandiose imperial lingo.

Would not be the only case. England was very touchy about imperial pretensions. When the Emperor Sigismund came calling in the reign of Henry V. He was not allowed to disembark until he renounced any rights to England. I have not heard of a similar story when Manuel II came to England looking for help against the Turks. I suppose when you have pawned off your imperial regalia and your daddy (John V) spent time in an Italian debtor's prison...nobody is intimidated by your titles.

 

[Alerias]

** I think that "Byzantium" should be split up. It's just too big of a kingdom that spans too far. I think if you're going to have Byzantium, then rename Greece to Byzantium and make some kingdom titles in Asia Minor.

Heresy

 

[rashtrakut]

CK1 had Byzantium going into realm duress shortly after the game started, which makes sense as Mazikert and the loss of most of Anatolia commenced in 1071. If you wait till 1204 you will get Byzantium parcelled out into the Kingdom of Thessalonica, Epirus, The Latin Empire, Empire of Nice, Empire of Trebizond and a bunch of duchies in the Morea....plus Cyprus is independent by then too.

 

[ghengilhar]

I dont recall Chancellor Palpatine talking it over with the Pope before he formed the Empire.

Don't worry I'm sure George Lucas will add it in the next version of Star Wars he releases!

 

[JiangShaoWei]

Before the Russians claimed to be the third Rome the derived their authority from the mongol Khans. In fact early Russian rulers saw themselves are successors to the Tartars and got their "right to rule" from the old Mongol Khans.

 

[skinkyskating]

Before the Russians claimed to be the third Rome the derived their authority from the mongol Khans. In fact early Russian rulers saw themselves are successors to the Tartars and got their "right to rule" from the old Mongol Khans.

Yeah this bothered me so I needed to respond. The grand princes got the idea to become Tzars(ceasar) from western Slavs fleeing from the Ottomans. It was actualy a western slav Orthodox priest(can't remember his name) that promoted the idea of Russia as the Third Rome. In Essenes Moscowites saw themselves as preserving Christianity because Byzantine Empire fell, they were not successor state to the Mongols. In fact in Russian Christian Orthodox is pravaslvaniy which literally means"true Belivers."

 

[JiangShaoWei]

I read in the book Russia by Longhorn that the Russian Grand Dukes not the Czars derived their power from the mongol Khans. I was talking about the original authority of the Grande Dukes not the authority the claimed from being the third Rome.

 

[skinkyskating]

I am not sure what you mean by authority. Do you mean their right to exist? As in if you don't pay us annual tribute we will kill you and everyone you know or do you mean who ever is approved by the Khan has the highest athourity. If its any of those then you are right for the period of Monghol Yolk.

 

[Nick B II]

I am not sure what you mean by authority. Do you mean their right to exist? As in if you don't pay us annual tribute we will kill you and everyone you know or do you mean who ever is approved by the Khan has the highest athourity. If its any of those then you are right for the period of Monghol Yolk.

I think he's speaking in the sense of Fons Honorum, that the Khans made and could legally unmake Grand Princes.

I doubt the Russian Grand Dukes of the time were very enthusiastic about this particular legal theory, but I also doubt they'd have been paying tribute to the Khans if they were in a position to argue the point.

Nick

 

[skinkyskating]

Ok cool, I agree with Dogia anyone should have the ability to name themselves emperor. For example i name myself emperor of this forum. Of course no one would agree with me and you will think I am insane. In the medieval world if you did not have enough claim you would get killed or put back in you place.