Empires!

[Gromdal]

Was this claim of Dusan acknowledged in the West? I suppose it wasn't in Constantinople.

I dont have that deep knowledge of the subject, only stories from historians. Problem here in Serbia is that you never know which historian is real one, and which one tales you nationalistic version, so I cant claim that stories from my teachers are true. In the books that I stuied from it is said that Dusan death isn't certain but that it is possible that he was poisened.

Now one historian said at class that Pope and Dusan negotiated about launching a crusade, that Dusan would lead ( that would probably mean he was or he was going to be acknowledged by the pope). Otherone aded that pope required from Dusan and his court to convert to Catholic in order to lead a crusade which he refused. And there is even a theory that Pope ordered to poison Dusan becouse of his refusal to convert. I cant verify nothing of this, stricly becouse Im sceptical about history unless I get a confirmation from multiple sources. I hope one day I will get the time to research deeper into subject, from an Europian sources, but have no idea where to begin.

 

[Gromdal]

Ok, I found the article about the title http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_Serbia

Its not long and it should be enough for someone to conclude should the title be in the game or not.

Also in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Uroš_IV_Dušan_of_Serbia is said that after he became emperor he crowned hes son as King of Serbia, while he focused on rulling "Roman part of the empire". Also from his article on wikipedia:

"Dušan was also in contact with the Pope, he negotiated about formal acceptance of papal primacy, his two goals were: stopping Hungarian attacks in the north, and, with the help of the Pope, assemble and organize a crusade against the Turks (Muslims)." and "Some historians consider that the goal of Emperor Dušan was to establish a new, Serbian-Greek Empire, replacing the Byzantine Empire. ... In his royal title, Emperor of the Serbs and Greeks, his claim as Eastern Roman (Byzantine) successor is clear"

In the DD video about character relations there is Dusan on screen but in 1331. while he was king -_- so it cant be seen in that video if he is going to have emperor title.

But given all I think we should have option to use the title becose as a player we can easily finish of Byzantine Empire if we start the game at 1347. when Dusan was Emperor.

But Im just going wait and see, I spamed to much already.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

I dont have that deep knowledge of the subject, only stories from historians. Problem here in Serbia is that you never know which historian is real one, and which one tales you nationalistic version, so I cant claim that stories from my teachers are true. In the books that I stuied from it is said that Dusan death isn't certain but that it is possible that he was poisened.

Now one historian said at class that Pope and Dusan negotiated about launching a crusade, that Dusan would lead ( that would probably mean he was or he was going to be acknowledged by the pope). Otherone aded that pope required from Dusan and his court to convert to Catholic in order to lead a crusade which he refused. And there is even a theory that Pope ordered to poison Dusan becouse of his refusal to convert. I cant verify nothing of this, stricly becouse Im sceptical about history unless I get a confirmation from multiple sources. I hope one day I will get the time to research deeper into subject, from an Europian sources, but have no idea where to begin.

Boo for not confirming my prejudices! Discussions about this sort of thing concerning Balkan nations are supposed to be like a stormy sea of the insane ranting and raving of crazed nationalists trying to top each other with absurd claims! I am disappoint.



Nah, just kidding, nice to see a civil discussion, do you have to be that careful with all teachers in Serbia?
On topic: In Ck I you could usurp a title if you controlled 50% of the de jure provinces. But I don't think that empires had any actual de jure provinces in CK 1. If they do in CK II, that could be a way to represent his claim on the orthodox empire.

 

[Zzzzz...]

Correct me if I'm wrong but empires have de jure provinces in CK1 (there's no such thing as 4th tier). HRE is, basically, King of Germany with elective law. ERE is Greece + Anatolia provinces.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Correct me if I'm wrong but empires have de jure provinces in CK1 (there's no such thing as 4th tier). HRE is, basically, King of Germany with elective law. ERE is Greece + Anatolia provinces.

Oh yeah, right, they are just king titles with special rules. I wonder how it will work in CK 2 though. If the Empire titles will be conected with king titles, or if they will have a larger set of de jure provinces

 

[Gromdal]

Nah, just kidding, nice to see a civil discussion, do you have to be that careful with all teachers in Serbia?
.

Nah, only some history teachers are poblem, when they tell "their" versions of history . And those are rare, still you cant be to carefull, history is delicate subject in Balkan . And most people who spam those "my nation is greatest and has claim on univrse" have no idea about history in 1st place, but are the loudest and spam the forums constantly, so its no wonder people think we are like that. The truth is most people don't care about that, and other like me, are intrested in knowing what realy happened, not what we wish happened.

 

[yourworstnightm]

I dont have that deep knowledge of the subject, only stories from historians. Problem here in Serbia is that you never know which historian is real one, and which one tales you nationalistic version, so I cant claim that stories from my teachers are true. In the books that I stuied from it is said that Dusan death isn't certain but that it is possible that he was poisened.

Now one historian said at class that Pope and Dusan negotiated about launching a crusade, that Dusan would lead ( that would probably mean he was or he was going to be acknowledged by the pope). Otherone aded that pope required from Dusan and his court to convert to Catholic in order to lead a crusade which he refused. And there is even a theory that Pope ordered to poison Dusan becouse of his refusal to convert. I cant verify nothing of this, stricly becouse Im sceptical about history unless I get a confirmation from multiple sources. I hope one day I will get the time to research deeper into subject, from an Europian sources, but have no idea where to begin.

If you can't trust the middle men, go to the prime sources. If there was correspondence between Dusan and the Pope it is preserved somewhere (the Serbian historians must have gotten that information from somewhere). Try to track it down, might be in some Vatican library or some Serbian archive. Of course it will probably be in Latin. Also are there any chronicles written about Dusan. Medieval chronicles are of course propaganda pieces, and thus contain a lot of exaggerations and straight out lies, but sometimes they are the best source there is about what certain kings and churchmen were like.

 

[Gromdal]

If you can't trust the middle men, go to the prime sources. If there was correspondence between Dusan and the Pope it is preserved somewhere (the Serbian historians must have gotten that information from somewhere). Try to track it down, might be in some Vatican library or some Serbian archive. Of course it will probably be in Latin. Also are there any chronicles written about Dusan. Medieval chronicles are of course propaganda pieces, and thus contain a lot of exaggerations and straight out lies, but sometimes they are the best source there is about what certain kings and churchmen were like.

I managed to find a book called The Slavs in European History and Civilization by Francis Dvornik, I think he was Czech, and he taught at Charles University in Prague, the Collège de France, and Harvard University. Im reading it now. In the book its confirmed all of the above, about relations with the pope and organizing crusade. Only death part is unclier (He died sudenly before the crusade started, one of the goals of the crusade was also the counquest of Constantinople, as it stand in the book).

As it seems Dusan was much more ambitions than I thought, he tryed to become the sole defender of christianity (against Ottomans) and negotiated with the Pope Innocent VI at Avignon about it. He proffesed his readiness to recognize the Pope as the Father of all Christians. The Pope welcomed Dusan's offer and expressed his willingness to appoint Dusan as " Captain of the whole of Christendom". The Pope's legates, Thomas of Perigord, met Emperor Charles IV, King of Bohemia, in Pisa, on his way to Serbia, and Charles gave them a letter in which he welcomed Dusan's intentions and "greeted him as a fellow Slavic ruler (this is how it stands i the book).

Dusan's sudden death stopped all that. In book it stands that Dusan might be the most powerfull ruler in Europe in his time, adn that his death opened a way for Ottomans in Europe, as a last serious obstacle for them was gone as it stands in the book.

Im definitly going to dig deeper into this, but at the moment I have no time, need graduate in the next few months. ( Who can read about economy and transnational companis when hostory is so much more intresting -_-)

 

[soran]

well, only read the first page. but, since some seem interested in the possibility of another empire being forged in the game for gameplay and role play purposes.

why not have it function the same way as the anti-pope?

i am powerful enough to stand my ground, i declare myself emperor, give my empire a name, name my imperial title, that'll put me in the direct line of fire against the HRE and it'll weaken the religious standing and having the similar negative effects that an anti-pope gives or something?

 

[olvirki]

Finland is not a part of Scandinavia Scandinavia is Norway, Denmark and Sweden

I thing geographical Scandinavia is Norway and Sweden, since they share the peninsula, the original cultural Scandinavia is Denmark, Norway and Sweden and cultural Scandinavia is Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Iceland and the other small island in the Atlantic (when they have Norse culture) and the largest exstend of Scandinavia is Denmark, Norway, Iceland Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Greenland and the islands in the north Atlantic.

 

[lemonsquid]

I thing geographical Scandinavia is Norway and Sweden, since they share the peninsula, the original cultural Scandinavia is Denmark, Norway and Sweden and cultural Scandinavia is Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Iceland and the other small island in the Atlantic (when they have Norse culture) and the largest exstend of Scandinavia is Denmark, Norway, Iceland Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Greenland and the islands in the north Atlantic.

agreed

 

[Wallain]

I thing geographical Scandinavia is Norway and Sweden, since they share the peninsula, the original cultural Scandinavia is Denmark, Norway and Sweden and cultural Scandinavia is Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Iceland and the other small island in the Atlantic (when they have Norse culture) and the largest exstend of Scandinavia is Denmark, Norway, Iceland Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Greenland and the islands in the north Atlantic.

In short:

Scandinavian peninsula: Sweden, Norway and some northern parts of Finland.
Cutural Scandinavia: Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Iceland.
Political Scandinavia / Baltoscandia: Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

As of note then the Baltic countries included in the political version are only associated because of previous Scandinavian rule and thereof comes the similarities. And it is the full extended version of the term (often you do not include the Baltic countries Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania).

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Please stop this discussion about what is Scandinavia and what is not, it has nothing to do with the game.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Garwaghlemargel!

edit

whoops, thats what you get for taking your sweet time replying

 

[Wallain]

And Thor drinks a mug of mead.

In any case, on topic, I personally find the idea of creating your own empires interesting, but I do think it should require a lot and possibly also have you go to extensive lengths to have yourself be recognized before the title holds any meaning. For example - If the pope and the HRE disagree you might have to wage a war Napoleon-style to win their respect. It might give you some badboy, but hey.

It should probably require a lot of dukes, perhaps when you are at the point where organizing such a vast nation becomes really difficult without just dealing with dukes and arch bishops. Calling it anything would probably be very difficult. I mean it could be called so many things. Norse Empire? Danish Empire? Baltic Empire? North Sea Empire? Iberian Empire? Spanish Empire? Anyway, point is it should not be easy and maybe not even preferable if you want some efficiency.

 

[lemonsquid]

Garwaghlemargel!

lol, what!?!

 

[Meanmanturbo]

lol, what!?!

Wouldn't you like to know? Just random noise mate

 

[lemonsquid]

Wouldn't you like to know? Just random noise mate

i enjoyed sounding it out

 

[Secret Master]

I think Portugal is part of the King of Galicia title

In the current preview build, they are not the same. Galicia exists in 1066, but Portugal does not.

There is a Duchy of Portucal which exists, but you'd have to conquer enough provinces to form Kingdom of Portugal.

 

[nwinther]

It is a part of political Scandinavia. In terms of geography you are correct however.

Edit: I also think the empires should be larger. The Norse empire for example should include Britain or the Baltic. My opinion anyway.

I've read scholars coining Cnut the Great as a de facto emperor. His control over England, Denmark, Norway and some of Sweden - along with his good relationship with the HRE, the King of Burgundy and the Pope - indicates some of the traits typically connected with Empires (Rule over more than one culture, large lands etc.).

A title I've always liked it "High King" if you'd want another tier.