empires and burghers stratergy

[Sweynforkbeard]

Also, won't your Lord Mayor's income (and therefore taxes) plummet as you give him more lands past his demesne limit (typically around 2 or 3)?

No no, a normal doge or lord mayor you will want to hold, personally, just enough cities that he will never exceed his demense limit.

The example we are discussing here is a situation where every mayor in your realm (not your demense) answer to a a single lord mayor.

 

[Sweynforkbeard]

1. so youre going to individually raise the ships of the burgehrs only? more microing
2. and this is? this isnt effiecient AT ALL. you need to constantly gift your vassles money(which is managable in a relam like scotland, nroway or maybe even england but not one the zise of the byzantine empire)
3. why do it then if there are about as effiecient ways that require much LESS microing?
4. what doesnt work? anyway, its NOT an effectice way to get vassels to develop as my personal expiereince with this is that nobles will not behave properly with building(but could be wrong on that), and basicly requires you to constantly gift them money. while theyll love you, youll bakrupt them every time you levy anything from them. also, why does it help tech? youre not really boosting tech with this system as far as i can see.

1. You can raise every single ship, in your realm, with a single click, into a single big stack... If you raise the lord mayors ships you will raise every ships from every single city into one stack. (if you also give every king in your realm a country around the lord mayor´s you can essentially muster all your forces with minimal effort)
2. Ofcourse you need to constantly gift your vasals money. If you want extreeme control of the economic resources of your realm, then it should go without saying that you will also have the task of administrating them. But some people just like to be in charge.
3. There are many different ways to administrate a realm, all have their advantages and disadvantages. In this particular case you can get most of the benefits from using lordmayors while still retaining nobles as the primary ruling class.
4a. In my experience there is no difference between the way nobles develop their holdings, whether they get the money from gifts or from a regular income. 4b It helps tech because you can allow your dukes or kings to hold more countries personally. That will allow them to benefit more from the technology bonus. And ofcourse, because cities will have larger incomes they might actually, eventually, manage to get around to building those universities.

I agree with you totally that it is an insane strategy. But it does work.

 

[Damorte]

in which case theyll also disallow sucession law changes, destabilise the realm with sieges and all and is generally less than optimal. you want your vassels to have little problems with his vassels, you wnat them to hate EACHOTHER. so, the duke of X wants to claim my title? well, because i messe dup the de jure borders vassels now all have counties in eachothers realm and hate eachothernoone is going to help him rebel.

Like i said, in some cases.

 

[grumphie]

1. You can raise every single ship, in your realm, with a single click, into a single big stack... If you raise the lord mayors ships you will raise every ships from every single city into one stack. (if you also give every king in your realm a country around the lord mayor´s you can essentially muster all your forces with minimal effort)
2. Ofcourse you need to constantly gift your vasals money. If you want extreeme control of the economic resources of your realm, then it should go without saying that you will also have the task of administrating them. But some people just like to be in charge.
3. There are many different ways to administrate a realm, all have their advantages and disadvantages. In this particular case you can get most of the benefits from using lordmayors while still retaining nobles as the primary ruling class.
4a. In my experience there is no difference between the way nobles develop their holdings, whether they get the money from gifts or from a regular income. 4b It helps tech because you can allow your dukes or kings to hold more countries personally. That will allow them to benefit more from the technology bonus. And ofcourse, because cities will have larger incomes they might actually, eventually, manage to get around to building those universities.

I agree with you totally that it is an insane strategy. But it does work.

1. my mistake there. im still with my mind in the pre-liege levy era.
2. and liek i said a gazillion times before, that is ofcourse perfectly viable ruling scotland in 1066 but not really while ruling western europe in the 1300's. the vast amount of microing needed simply kills the game for a abysmall benefit.
3. you get the most personal benefit. also, we werent jus duscussing lord mayors here. for th eoverall realm, i found goign catholic+free inesture+bishops being the top ruler everywhere is by far the most effective as(at least hey used to) dont mind absolute CA, are incredeblye asy to keep happy with the +25 bonsu from fee investure and +10 for things liek charitable and never blob into a superduke/king due to them being non dynastic. you get to choose your heir as you simply send everyone between te first and preferred to a bishopric and then assasinate the first.
4a. well, our persoanl expierence apperantly differs here.
4b. no. simply wrong. vassel holdings dont take demense size. so, in what way does this stimulate tech growth?

also, while this ofcourse works, it is by far not the most effective and certainly not the most time effiecient. lord mayors can be gamed much betterthan this.

 

[Sweynforkbeard]

1. my mistake there. im still with my mind in the pre-liege levy era.
2. and liek i said a gazillion times before, that is ofcourse perfectly viable ruling scotland in 1066 but not really while ruling western europe in the 1300's. the vast amount of microing needed simply kills the game for a abysmall benefit.
3. you get the most personal benefit. also, we werent jus duscussing lord mayors here. for th eoverall realm, i found goign catholic+free inesture+bishops being the top ruler everywhere is by far the most effective as(at least hey used to) dont mind absolute CA, are incredeblye asy to keep happy with the +25 bonsu from fee investure and +10 for things liek charitable and never blob into a superduke/king due to them being non dynastic. you get to choose your heir as you simply send everyone between te first and preferred to a bishopric and then assasinate the first.
4a. well, our persoanl expierence apperantly differs here.
4b. no. simply wrong. vassel holdings dont take demense size. so, in what way does this stimulate tech growth?

also, while this ofcourse works, it is by far not the most effective and certainly not the most time effiecient. lord mayors can be gamed much betterthan this.

Firstly, just to get it out of the way, anyone using lordmayors/doges do so because they believe that gold in their pockets is better than gold in the pockets of their vasals.

2. We have already agreed that the micromanagement involved should be a major deterrent to most players. But I fail to see how you get to the conclussion that the benefits are abysmall. What the strategy essentially does is to give you most of the advantages of using doges (gold) without the drawback of instability.
3. Bishops are great for stability, we can all agree on that, but they are woefully inefficient in all other matters. Their economic structures are on par with with baronies while their military structures are woefully weaker. Seen from an efficiency perspective, the economic resources of your realm is always better of placed in cities (for more gold) or baronies (for troops).
4b. I am assuming you use a 1 country policy or something similar. My point was that you can allow your dukes or kings to hold more countries in their personal demense because they will be easy to control and keep happy. This will allow them to take advantage of the demense technology bonuses.
5. In principle you could have a realm consisting only of doges, which would provide you with even more gold. But that would also require even more micromanagment (now you have to regularly gift every baron to upgrade your realm instead) and you would not gain the advantage of stability. So you have to pardon me, but I think the specified strategy is infact the most effecient (and gamey) lord mayor strategy humanly imaginable.

 

[Hastyr]

Sweyn, I'll try this 'one lord mayor to rule them all' approach, and come back with results.
It seems interesting and as a bonus it should prevent vassals from revolting against me because they (hopefully) cant afford their own armies.

 

[unmerged(425486)]

why is fast food in the ck2 forum

 

[dorukdorucu]

The main thing with having non-feudal vassals is because crown authority maluses only apply to feudal lords. So you can go max CA all the time and get a lot of levies with no apparent trade off, except for vassals mayors who don't like you. Bishops with free investiture on the other hand are really good with a lot of opinion bonuses especially if you do a lot of holy warring for the "Paragon of Virtue" aspiration, giving(correct me if i'm worng) a whopping +50 relations with every single bishop. They also can't marry except for special cases and so have no claims etc. you need to worry about. If you run free investiture you can also use selective breeding to create genius vassals with really high stewardship, resulting in a very high income, tech rate and other bonuses. Last, but not least you have the fact that churches give more taxes then cities/castles at max clergy taxes. Also they have pretty good troops, but maybe a little weak defence.