empires and burghers stratergy

[unknownenlord]

i heard of a stratergy of making burghers as country holders (can't remember where) but how do it? do i also give them duchies what about kingdoms. i plan on restoring the roman empire so how can i make it work on that scale. any other gamey tactics for keeping your empire in balance and stable

 

[unmerged(424234)]

Giving higher titles to mayors does not make your empire more stable. On the contrary it gives -30 relation penalty for wrong govt. type, and in addition to that, if the county has foreign culture, in 50 or so year the lord mayor will become foreigner as well. God forbid you do this with territories you won in crusades - you will have arabs in your realm.

 

[grumphie]

trick with burghers is to have a few merchant republics in your realm, resulting in a large income that can be used to gift troublesome vassels. if you want a overly STABLE empire though, be a catholic and convert all your vassels into bishops, while running free investure.

 

[unknownenlord]

thanks for the replys should i make mayors countys and give duchies to one baron e.g a duchy that has four lord mayors and one count who is the duke.

 

[grumphie]

NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

that just screws up the whole point! only direct vassels pay you taxes. give it to a duke and youre just making HIM rich.

 

[unknownenlord]

if i was byzantine empire how will i set up greece the area with all greek culture in terms of countys and dukes. thanks for the help i really appreciate it

 

[Portal]

No, no, no. You will not get more income with vassals having burgher vassals. Your income depends on your taxation laws. If Dukes rule over Lord Mayors and you have No Feudal Tax, you will still get no money! It accomplishes literally nothing aside from perhaps allowing burgher vassals and their direct lords to obtain a lot of money to blitz holdings.

It is far more efficient to appoint Archbishops. They are not warlike and have a balance between funds and gold. Even better, Free Investiture gives you a relationship bonus and allows you to appoint loyal vassals, AND traits like Charitable also provide an opinion boost. They are the most efficient.

BUT, do not institute these overhauls in an already established kingdom! Suddenly purging your entire aristocracy will result in massive civil war. Instead, plot as lieges do; attempt to curb the power of vassals through assassination, marriage and political power. Revoke the duchies of disloyal vassals and appoint faithful clergy in their place.

Also, it's more preferable to attempt to place Dynasty members on your vassals thrones.

 

[unknownenlord]

would the bishops option be viable if i am orthodox so i can't use free investiture or would it be the same as burghers

 

[anonymouswolfm]

Also, it's more preferable to attempt to place Dynasty members on your vassals thrones.

This really is a double edged sword. They are more likely to rebel against you at the same time, and especially if the player's character is unlikeable.

would the bishops option be viable if i am orthodox so i can't use free investiture or would it be the same as burghers

They are like Catholic bishops in game except that you cannot appoint their successors and they always pay church taxes to you.

 

[Portal]

Can you post an overview of your situation? I mean, if you suddenly ascended to Greek Emperor and you're trying to reform the entire society... you would die.

EDIT @anonymouswolfm: The whole point of the game is moving your dynasty about. Having vassal dynasty members propagates your dynasty, and even if they seize the throne from your Kinslaying dickhead it's still in the family. You can easily intermarry heirs as there's no dynasty penalty, so even if you lose the throne it is easily taken back. The important game is the family.

 

[unknownenlord]

well i havn't started yet. so if i haven't made it clear i am going to be the byzantines on the earliest start or alexad. i plan on slowly bringing the changes through so my can you explain what to do with starting regions and what to do as i expand.i don't plan on a doing it all straight away i know i can't just revoke left right and center.

edit nevermind i think i got it. i need to just spam bishops as they will be less like to challange my rule. but only i areas that are well intergrated into my empire

 

[Sweynforkbeard]

i heard of a stratergy of making burghers as country holders (can't remember where) but how do it? do i also give them duchies what about kingdoms. i plan on restoring the roman empire so how can i make it work on that scale. any other gamey tactics for keeping your empire in balance and stable

If you are in the really gamey mood and want to exploit mayors you can do the following.
1. Make someone a lord mayor.
2. Systematically plot to acquire every single country in your realm.
3. When you acquire a country transfer the vassalage of all city holdings to your personal lord mayor. Then give away the country to whatever noble you want to.

4.In principle you can have a single lord mayor control the income of all cities in your realm. This lord mayor will like you but otherwise be universially hated by all. Even if you tax him harshly (which you will ofcourse) he will still very quickly become very very rich and have nothing to spend the cash on. You can then do one of two things.
A. Have him excommunicated, arrested and banished. (This is why you should not make him a doge as the additional title will cost you more tyrany.
Or, if A is not an option.
B. Let him have 2 countries and a single city. 1) Plot to take back a country, everyone hates him so it will be very easy. 2) Have him rebel. 3) Defeat him,obviously using surprise 4) imprison him, revoke his other country and banish him taking the single city and his cash.

5. Install a new suck.. I mean promote a new lord mayor.
6. Rinse and repeat regularly.

This would serve two purposes.
- All cities will benefit from the republic bonus making your realm overall more wealthy.
- You will be very rich and your nobles will be very poor. Through gift giving you can then not only control the development of your realm, but you can also become very popular in the process.



This is, arguably a gamey, way to gain virtually total control over your realm.

 

[unknownenlord]

If you are in the really gamey mood and want to exploit mayors you can do the following.
1. Make someone a lord mayor.
2. Systematically plot to acquire every single country in your realm.
3. When you acquire a country transfer the vassalage of all city holdings to your personal lord mayor. Then give away the country to whatever noble you want to.

4.In principle you can have a single lord mayor control the income of all cities in your realm. This lord mayor will like you but otherwise be universially hated by all. Even if you tax him harshly (which you will ofcourse) he will still very quickly become very very rich and have nothing to spend the cash on. You can then do one of two things.
A. Have him excommunicated, arrested and banished. (This is why you should not make him a doge as the additional title will cost you more tyrany.
Or, if A is not an option.
B. Let him have 2 countries and a single city. 1) Plot to take back a country, everyone hates him so it will be very easy. 2) Have him rebel. 3) Defeat him,obviously using surprise 4) imprison him, revoke his other country and banish him taking the single city and his cash.

5. Install a new suck.. I mean promote a new lord mayor.
6. Rinse and repeat regularly.

This would serve two purposes.
- All cities will benefit from the republic bonus making your realm overall more wealthy.
- You will be very rich and your nobles will be very poor. Through gift giving you can then not only control the development of your realm, but you can also become very popular in the process.



This is, arguably a gamey, way to gain virtually total control over your realm.

well i guess this thread is done this exacly what i'm looking for thank you for your help i'm going to this asap.
and thanks to everyone else who replied all your hints were valuable i am super happy with the support here

 

[grumphie]

If you are in the really gamey mood and want to exploit mayors you can do the following.
1. Make someone a lord mayor.
2. Systematically plot to acquire every single country in your realm.
3. When you acquire a country transfer the vassalage of all city holdings to your personal lord mayor. Then give away the country to whatever noble you want to.

4.In principle you can have a single lord mayor control the income of all cities in your realm. This lord mayor will like you but otherwise be universially hated by all. Even if you tax him harshly (which you will ofcourse) he will still very quickly become very very rich and have nothing to spend the cash on. You can then do one of two things.
A. Have him excommunicated, arrested and banished. (This is why you should not make him a doge as the additional title will cost you more tyrany.
Or, if A is not an option.
B. Let him have 2 countries and a single city. 1) Plot to take back a country, everyone hates him so it will be very easy. 2) Have him rebel. 3) Defeat him,obviously using surprise 4) imprison him, revoke his other country and banish him taking the single city and his cash.

5. Install a new suck.. I mean promote a new lord mayor.
6. Rinse and repeat regularly.

This would serve two purposes.
- All cities will benefit from the republic bonus making your realm overall more wealthy.
- You will be very rich and your nobles will be very poor. Through gift giving you can then not only control the development of your realm, but you can also become very popular in the process.



This is, arguably a gamey, way to gain virtually total control over your realm.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO! this doesnt work and is REALLY micromanagment heavy!

it ridiculously slows down development, as your nobles will never build something unless you all gift them money CONSTANTLY. in a realm the size of scotland or norway this works, but try to do this in the byzantine empire and youre basicly shooting yourself in the foot. the time and effort needed to pull that off is ridiculously large for barely any reward. while those few extra soldiers are nice, the seriously hampered developent of the realm and constant GIFT GIFT GIFT required basicly kills any fun in the game.

also, nobles are not going to spend their money properly due to their ridiculous low income, and ship levies bankrupt all coastal nobles. worse, theyll also not build properly(or at leats in my expiereince) resulting in a seriously underdeveloped realm.

this strategy is counterproductive. if you want to game the system, use bishops and rulers with a lot of virtues. not this kind of strange structure that requires constant microing to the piont of madness. this isnt gaming the system. you WANT your vassels to have a somewhat decent income. thats the reason you dont just keep every title and sometimes generate some mayors-banish for gold. while those systems work fine initially and are possibly veyr profitable in cash or troops, on the long run they seriously harm both fun and your realm.

 

[Damorte]

If you want to profit from the burghers they need to be your direct vassal i.e. Lord Mayors/doges or even serene doges.

Giving out doges to your vassal kings and lord mayors to your dukes might be a good idea in some cases though because it leads to your vassal becoming more destabalised by having vasssals that hate him/her.
If your vassal is fighting his own vassals hes not going to be fighting you.

 

[grumphie]

If you want to profit from the burghers they need to be your direct vassal i.e. Lord Mayors/doges or even serene doges.

Giving out doges to your vassal kings and lord mayors to your dukes might be a good idea in some cases though because it leads to your vassal becoming more destabalised by having vasssals that hate him/her.
If your vassal is fighting his own vassals hes not going to be fighting you.

in which case theyll also disallow sucession law changes, destabilise the realm with sieges and all and is generally less than optimal. you want your vassels to have little problems with his vassels, you wnat them to hate EACHOTHER. so, the duke of X wants to claim my title? well, because i messe dup the de jure borders vassels now all have counties in eachothers realm and hate eachothernoone is going to help him rebel.

 

[eranam]

Well grumphie you sure are passionate about the subject. Are you nooooooot ?

 

[Sweynforkbeard]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO! this doesnt work and is REALLY micromanagment heavy!

it ridiculously slows down development, as your nobles will never build something unless you all gift them money CONSTANTLY. in a realm the size of scotland or norway this works, but try to do this in the byzantine empire and youre basicly shooting yourself in the foot. the time and effort needed to pull that off is ridiculously large for barely any reward. while those few extra soldiers are nice, the seriously hampered developent of the realm and constant GIFT GIFT GIFT required basicly kills any fun in the game.

also, nobles are not going to spend their money properly due to their ridiculous low income, and ship levies bankrupt all coastal nobles. worse, theyll also not build properly(or at leats in my expiereince) resulting in a seriously underdeveloped realm.

this strategy is counterproductive. if you want to game the system, use bishops and rulers with a lot of virtues. not this kind of strange structure that requires constant microing to the piont of madness. this isnt gaming the system. you WANT your vassels to have a somewhat decent income. thats the reason you dont just keep every title and sometimes generate some mayors-banish for gold. while those systems work fine initially and are possibly veyr profitable in cash or troops, on the long run they seriously harm both fun and your realm.

1. It is cities not nobles that deliver and pay for the ships.
2. Bishops might be efficient for stability, but they are NOT efficient for developing a realm.
3. It kills all the fun and absurdly micromanagement heavy. Absolutely, I totally agree.
4. It doesnt work. Sorry I disagree. It is by fare the most effective way to get your vasals to develop stuff efficiently. Moreover, you can allow your nobles hold relatively more countries which will help tech development.

 

[grumphie]

1. so youre going to individually raise the ships of the burgehrs only? more microing
2. and this is? this isnt effiecient AT ALL. you need to constantly gift your vassles money(which is managable in a relam like scotland, nroway or maybe even england but not one the zise of the byzantine empire)
3. why do it then if there are about as effiecient ways that require much LESS microing?
4. what doesnt work? anyway, its NOT an effectice way to get vassels to develop as my personal expiereince with this is that nobles will not behave properly with building(but could be wrong on that), and basicly requires you to constantly gift them money. while theyll love you, youll bakrupt them every time you levy anything from them. also, why does it help tech? youre not really boosting tech with this system as far as i can see.

 

[Jamey]

Also, won't your Lord Mayor's income (and therefore taxes) plummet as you give him more lands past his demesne limit (typically around 2 or 3)?