empire size and planetary ascention rework needed

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classl3ss

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This is a topic that has been in long debate, and for good reason. The very foundations of such a topic are easily debatable, anything further built upon said foundation then becomes a bit.. for lack of a better word, shaky. Know my words act as a point of furthering the thoughts of this debate, rather then being argumentative.

Firstly, we have to decide what is considered balanced. Should being wide always be more effective then being tall? Tall has a natural advantage: the fact you don't have to work for it. Being tall simply means not conquering or expanding too greatly, so it's easy to per say play tall in the most literal sense. To play wide you have natural competitors, other empires vying for territory, and thus must work harder for it. If you were to go into a game with the idea of playing tall, well no one's stopping you from doing just that. So in theory, were you to make the two perfectly balanced, where going wide gains you little to no real additional research or unity due to increasing empire sprawl, and it took considerable effort to gain said territory, then what's really the point of going wide? Being more powerful militarily speaking, perhaps, but technology as it stands is the ruler of Stellaris, as it increases literally everything by substantial amounts in the game. In what might be interpreted as balanced, wide would in such a world be considered the lesser choice, until you've gained a technological leap that enemies can never hope to catch up to, and thus tall having no longer any use.

To some this may be entertaining, (especially those who roleplay their empires as such) but most dislike the idea of not being rewarded for a hard won conquest, and in this case, potentially even -harming- you. (since it'll be at the cost of technology and unity) Should wide then be slightly better? Marginally? Or is it okay that being tall would be the most powerful route from a gameplay perspective?

So now that I've added some thoughts, I'm now going to focus on my opinions on the matter. Ultimately, I think there should be more benefits to playing tall - rather then nerfing playing wide to the ground, I think it should be focused on making tall more viable. To me, encouraging playing tall to such a degree it becomes meta is far worse then what we have currently. This game as it stands isn't one of intrigue, this game largely focuses on war. There isn't a whole lot to do if you aren't planning for war. Technology is gained to have the upper hand and go to war, economy is enhanced to go to war, fleets are prepared to go to war. Tall and war aren't exclusive, but there aren't many benefits to gain from war if you're playing tall. It'd be an overall pretty boring game for a long time if the game's early to mid game revolved around going tall.

I think the gap is certainly as it stands too wide (pun intended) in between the two, but I'd personally focus on enhancing/buffing tall, rather then nerfing wide. Bridging the gap between the two too much will encourage a play-style that this game just simply isn't built for. The game isn't designed to make things interesting outside of war. Even diplomacy mostly focuses on aspects of war, (or keeping others from warring with you) with anything outside of that being a simple press of a button. For example, trade agreements while aren't directly war related, they also don't make anything more interesting about managing your empire. Playing wide plays into what this game was designed for, space age warfare. If the game was more interesting during peace time, such as managing your empire in fascinating ways then I'd be uttering different words for certain.

How would I buff playing tall? One way is to give them a -proper- diplomatic stance. Maybe two or three, for different empires. As it stands, there's a few really great choices for those playing wide, but almost none for tall. Maybe another new diplomatic stance is in order as well, something which increases empire sprawl dramatically from colonies but also increases technology, among potentially other things. I mean some serious benefits, but also be brutal about the weakness so that wide can't properly utilize it.

That's at least an idea, perhaps I'll think more on it to see if I can add anything more later.
 
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HFY

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The problem with pop system is that we moved away with planet title system, but not completely, the pop system is still a hidden echo of the tile system. This is what makes hard to make any meaningful change, we would have been much better state if we have Imperator: Rome / Victoria 2 hybrid pop system, though we will experience another major change.

If I recall correctly, the problem with those systems is they don't have room to account for different species with different traits.


Tall has a natural advantage: the fact you don't have to work for it.

The few "tall" games I've seen on here involved conquering vassals instead of blobbing the conquered systems.

You're making a very bad generalization when you decide that "tall" play means lazy play.
 
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SeraphAscending

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How would I buff playing tall? One way is to give them a -proper- diplomatic stance. Maybe two or three, for different empires. As it stands, there's a few really great choices for those playing wide, but almost none for tall. Maybe another new diplomatic stance is in order as well, something which increases empire sprawl dramatically from colonies but also increases technology, among potentially other things. I mean some serious benefits, but also be brutal about the weakness so that wide can't properly utilize it.
Maybe make a civic (one that isn't available from the start or cannot be removed) that increases empire size effect by +100% (or more), empire size from colonies by +100% (or more), -20% empire size from pops (-% modifiers are more tricky to balance) and gives significant internal production/amenity/upkeep/pop buffs.

It should really punish you hard for expanding, but reward you significantly if you keep a small, effective industry.
 
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Franton

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Maybe make a civic
Rather than making a civic (or other new game element, why not use the opportunity to flesh out existing civics, origins, or even ethics?

E. g. Militarist wants to go wide, so give them reduced size cost from colonies and systems. Xenophobe gets increased empire size cost from xeno pops.

Functional Architecture is meant to help improving planets, so it might also reduce empire size cost for colonies. Despoilers steal pops, so let them also have reduced size from pops - they should know how to keep negative effects from those captives minimal after all.

And for origins, one thing that springs to my mind is that Void Dwellers should have reduzed size from habitats and increased size from planets.

Not going to spend much time on time on this right now, but I'm sure there are lots of existing elements that could be adjusted in this manner, to better reflect an empires tendency for more or less expansion.
 
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evilcat

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I can only confirm that empire sprawl is not that important for very big empire, unless there is a special factor like FP. Reasons:
+You can simply keep % of pops as science and build that monuments.
+Accumulative bonuses from tech, traditions, buildings specs.
+Vassals, they dont contribute empire size but even basic resources are big deal.
Overall in 3.4 tech is even faster. Not that i complain. Having crisis in 125y makes game Entertaining.

What could be done:
+Larger grace period. It could be 100 size for free, or 100+number of years
+Limited free size extenders by nominal value like 5x20 free size you can acumulate here and there.
+Doubling the penalties after that
+Progressive penalty, there is one ration for first 500 above limit, but after that it is double. So you can grow a little before serious penalties kick in.


The main problem is that early game my tech grows very slow, but after 70y it explodes.

% discounts to empire size are dangerous as they may contribute to tech explosion, so they should be attached to stuff like civics, ascension perks, generally stuff you cant stack to much. Some civics could have discount to one aspect of empire size.
Like Interstellar Dominion ascension probably have many systems so can have 10% discount but only on systems.
 
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Franton

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The main problem is that early game my tech grows very slow, but after 70y it explodes
Yes, I noticed this very early, even back when I started playing with version 2.3. Early game, unless you deliberately build a second or third laab, the first techs will take on the order of 10 years to complete. Late game however, it's not hard to research one tier of a repeatable within a year or less. These late game techs should take much longer compared to the early game techs!

I think tier 1 techs should be researchable in less than 5 years just with the starting research output. About half the current cost seems about right. Higher tech levels then should scale harder - say a factor of 3 or 4 from one tech tier to the next. E. g. 1000 Research for tier 1 (lower boundary), 3k+ for tier 2, 10k+ for tier 3, 30k+ for tier 4, and 100k+ for tier 5. This would double early research speed and half late game research speed compared to the current state.

I really liked the approach chosen in Moo2 for research: rather than automatically completing a research project after a fixed amount of research points, you just got a chance to complete one after a certain point, and any further research simply increased that chance to complete it on the next iteration. I think something like that could help, e. g. when your research points exceeds a certain point, you get a chance to complete it with the next step, equal to (1-[points-needed]/[points-researched]). That way you get a very low chance when you barely exceed the required amount, a 50% chance when you reach double the amounf, and an ever increasing chance (but never quite 100%) afterwards.
 
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tanny

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empire size as is does not really work as intended. The objective of empire size and tech and unity reductions that comes from it is meant to prevent too much snowballing from empires that seek to get as many colonies and as many pops as possible i.e "wide empire" by counterbalancing their more significant economies by reducing their the ability to out-tech or out-unity other empire. But as it is now, those empires can easily offset the tech reductions by just building more research labs and more bureaucratic centers. Several people have done the math by now and calculated that it would take about 1000 pops for those empires to start feeling the effect of empire size with only the bare minimum of efforts to build labs and bureaucratic centers. This is not nearly enough. I know it's an unpopular opinion but we honestly need penalties that are 10 times bigger at the very least.

I know there was a lot of backlash about the empire size mechanic but it is honestly something necessary for the balance of the game. There was a similar backlash when the devs introduced pop growth reductions from population size too but ultimately people got used to it, especially after the introduction of a slider in the setting of the game to regulate that growth penalty. Why can't we have a similar slider for empire size penalties? It would be an easy solution for a lot of issues.

It is not a perfect solution, however. As many people have pointed out already, decreasing the empire size from pops and increasing the sprawl from the number of districts, systems, and colonies in a given empire would make sprawl affect a wide empire more efficiently.

I have a few suggestions on my own that are more roleplay or player choice-focused since the dev tends to prefer those. Maybe the empire capital and colonies within systems linked to the empire capital by hyper relays network could get a reduction of the empire size they generate? It would force the empire to choose between spending their alloys on acquiring more colonies or on making sure they are correctly linked and managed, and a habitat-focused empire would get a lot of mileage out of this. And it would make sense from a roleplay perspective as a better-connected empire with a better infrastructure would be easier to manage.

Factions could decrease sprawl from pops in the same way they increase unity from pops. Meaning that en empire would have to spend time to make sure their population is happy or at least fall in line properly or see their empire becoming harder to manage. I would suggest increasing the base unity pop produce for this very reason.

Alternatively, there is the planetary ascension system which brings me to my second point. I like the concept of planetary ascension. But I think that as it is, it is not worth the cost. At best this is something for the empire to dump their unity on in the late game where there is nowhere else to spend unity. And it works well in that specific scenario. But beyond that it is useless. Which is a shame. Since ascending a tier reduce the empire size of the planet, I was thinking that by avoiding expanding too quickly and ascending well-populated planets there would be a way to mitigate Empire size, again putting in the player's hands the choice to expand as much as possible for maximum economic power, or expend carefully, but in a way that doesn't increase empire size so an empire can reach a decent amount of territory while still being able to tech or unity rush.

But in practice, the bonuses are too weak. It could stand a little more empire size reduction, something like 6-8% per tier. And especially it needs to increase the production a lot more to make the upgrading competitive, and a valid choice to spend unity on rather than edicts or ascension perks. To be fair I think the latter point is less due to the ascension system itself and more the fact it works through the increase of the bonuses from planetary designation, which does not work well with that system. The bonuses from designation aren't all that great. The main problem is outside of designations focused on producing basic resources, designations reduce the upkeep and cost rather than increasing production. You can only reduce metallurgist or researcher upkeep so much. If instead designation increased the production of those jobs like they do for basic resources, it would be a lot better.

I understand why designations are like that. though. That's why i suggest to add in the tech tree, especially the society tech tree, technologies that upgrade planetary designations effects, adding production bonuses that would be gated behind technology.

But what do you think ? Can i get a dev's opinion on this ?
I do not think empire size is meant to prevent certain playstyles. Larger empires are supposed to be more powerful than smaller empires. The empire size modifier merely changes those numbers. Remember that resource spent on expanding is a resource not spent on upgrading your empires to make them more efficient, offering you lots of benefit.
 
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Ikael

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There are many interesting topics in this thread, let's tackle them one by one:

Empire Sprawl. It works as a mechanism to avoid snowballing (even if I would make snowballing even harder, perhaps via harder assimilation of conquered pops), but it does very little to help tall. As a suggestion, I would increase empire sprawl for colonies depending on their distance to their capital (say, +1 extra sprawl point per jump). This way, it would make picking chokepoints costlier, it would make mindless wide expansion more punishing, and it will make galactic geography more relevant.

Relays reducing empire sprawl: Hell yes. Great suggestion, OP.

Pop growth: It will be a mess as long as you can have "unlimited tiles" to place your pops, thanks to the housing system, along with puny +10% productivity increments (hence the "pop quantity will always beat quality"). Solving this problem, however, will require a lot of economic fine-tuning that might deserve a topic of its own. If it were up to me, I would start by making the number of pops per planet a hard cap, and make its expansion an expensive, conscious investment.

Planetary ascensions:
They are currently a unity dump in the worst sense of the word, they need to go back to the drawing board with them. I really like the idea of employing unity to make your planets more productive and specialized, but planet ascensions are just pretty much useless in their current state. I already suggested making planetary ascensions a way to truly differentiate your planets, giving permanent, powerful bonuses to them and un-tieing them from planetary designation, making them work more as a reflection of the local planetary culture (say, ascending a planet into a "hollow world", banning agricultural districts on them but giving a flat +1 minerals to miners, for example). There is a lot that you can do with them.
 
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Franton

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Just a short opinion on the summarized points:
increase empire sprawl for colonies depending on their distance to their capital
I'm all for it, and apparently the majority of the people reacting to the suggestion too. The only opinion voiced against was based on the concern that empires with habitats would benefit too much from it. But I beg to disagree, considering the low capacity and steep cost of habitats. I'd rather see this suggestion implemented and then wait and see whether or not it needs an adjustment with respect to habitats.
Relays reducing empire sprawl
Please, no! As I already pointed out, empire size is a very important core mechanic, but Hyper Relays are DLC content. It's ok for them to have a minor effect on empire size, but essentially the effect of empire size from distance should remain the same, whether a player has or hasn't the DLC!
Pop growth
[...]
might deserve a topic of its own
IMHO, pop growth should depend on the conditions of the given habitable body. But ethics and policies can and should also have an overall effect. The current mechanic depending on total number of pops isn't great, but I think a connection to sprawl would be a lot more sensible: e. g. in an empire that is growing too quickly, there are effects of destabilization and unrest, and that is my understanding of what sprawl should represent. These effects could - and possibly should - have an overall negative effect on pop growth.
Planetary ascensions
Personally I don't really get why we needed a new mechanic to start with rather than simply letting us handle planet development with the tools we already have. The devs already added techs to improve productivity with higher tier capiatal buildings, why not also add a size modifier - with or without associated tech?
 
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Ikael

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Just a short opinion on the summarized points:

I'm all for it, and apparently the majority of the people reacting to the suggestion too. The only opinion voiced against was based on the concern that empires with habitats would benefit too much from it. But I beg to disagree, considering the low capacity and steep cost of habitats. I'd rather see this suggestion implemented and then wait and see whether or not it needs an adjustment with respect to habitats.

I concur. I also think that habitats need a bit of a boost, so that might do the trick and kill two birds with one stone?

Please, no! As I already pointed out, empire size is a very important core mechanic, but Hyper Relays are DLC content. It's ok for them to have a minor effect on empire size, but essentially the effect of empire size from distance should remain the same, whether a player has or hasn't the DLC!

I was thinking that perhaps making relays offset the extra sprawl added due to distance would be a good compromise that would avoid making them a "must-have". I also don't want to turn DLC into an integral part of the game, but at this point, that is already kinda happening. Certain expansions such as Utopia are almost mandatory at this point, at least in my personal view :S

[...]

IMHO, pop growth should depend on the conditions of the given habitable body. But ethics and policies can and should also have an overall effect. The current mechanic depending on total number of pops isn't great, but I think a connection to sprawl would be a lot more sensible: e. g. in an empire that is growing too quickly, there are effects of destabilization and unrest, and that is my understanding of what sprawl should represent. These effects could - and possibly should - have an overall negative effect on pop growth.

I yearn for habitability to have a much bigger impact, making it an important factor at pop capacity would be a step for it. As for tie-ing pop growth to sprawl, that's an interesting idea, but it would require a lot of adjustment as well, such as adaptation to galaxy size, for starters, and a much minor contribution of pops to sprawl (so you don't "die of success").

Personally I don't really get why we needed a new mechanic to start with rather than simply letting us handle planet development with the tools we already have. The devs already added techs to improve productivity with higher tier capiatal buildings, why not also add a size modifier - with or without associated tech?
Generally talking I am quite in favor of giving even more tools and ways to increase planet productivity so we can steer the game away from a sprint towards maximum global pop cap. That being said, it would be indeed preferable to achieve it by employing already existing mechanics rather than adding even more (hence why I thought that planetary ascensions could perhaps be that mechanic, but I am absolutely in favor of using other less convoluted methods if possible).
 
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SeraphAscending

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Rather than making a civic (or other new game element, why not use the opportunity to flesh out existing civics, origins, or even ethics?

E. g. Militarist wants to go wide, so give them reduced size cost from colonies and systems. Xenophobe gets increased empire size cost from xeno pops.

Functional Architecture is meant to help improving planets, so it might also reduce empire size cost for colonies. Despoilers steal pops, so let them also have reduced size from pops - they should know how to keep negative effects from those captives minimal after all.

And for origins, one thing that springs to my mind is that Void Dwellers should have reduzed size from habitats and increased size from planets.

Not going to spend much time on time on this right now, but I'm sure there are lots of existing elements that could be adjusted in this manner, to better reflect an empires tendency for more or less expansion.
Good ideas, but functional architecture should not just reduce colony empire size cost, but especially district cost.
To me functional architecture should be an ideal "tall" civic. You make the most of what you got instead of taking as much as you can get.

There are many interesting topics in this thread, let's tackle them one by one:

Empire Sprawl. It works as a mechanism to avoid snowballing (even if I would make snowballing even harder, perhaps via harder assimilation of conquered pops), but it does very little to help tall. As a suggestion, I would increase empire sprawl for colonies depending on their distance to their capital (say, +1 extra sprawl point per jump). This way, it would make picking chokepoints costlier, it would make mindless wide expansion more punishing, and it will make galactic geography more relevant.

Relays reducing empire sprawl: Hell yes. Great suggestion, OP.

Pop growth: It will be a mess as long as you can have "unlimited tiles" to place your pops, thanks to the housing system, along with puny +10% productivity increments (hence the "pop quantity will always beat quality"). Solving this problem, however, will require a lot of economic fine-tuning that might deserve a topic of its own. If it were up to me, I would start by making the number of pops per planet a hard cap, and make its expansion an expensive, conscious investment.

Planetary ascensions: They are currently a unity dump in the worst sense of the word, they need to go back to the drawing board with them. I really like the idea of employing unity to make your planets more productive and specialized, but planet ascensions are just pretty much useless in their current state. I already suggested making planetary ascensions a way to truly differentiate your planets, giving permanent, powerful bonuses to them and un-tieing them from planetary designation, making them work more as a reflection of the local planetary culture (say, ascending a planet into a "hollow world", banning agricultural districts on them but giving a flat +1 minerals to miners, for example). There is a lot that you can do with them.
I like all of this.
But as @Franton pointed out, there are a few issues regarding making DLC content too mandatory, which is valid.

I would really like if the costs of planetary ascensions got reworked.
I do like a lot of things about them, but they are just waaaaaay too expensive. Even for tall play they are almost unusable - which is what they were meant for.
Had a concept mapped out for more flexible costs, but don't know which thread that was in... (it was stuff like massively reduced base cost, increasing cost by total count of other planets in your empire, etc. - this might not be necessary if we had a finer modularity of what adds how much empire size.)

----

An idea i had is policies that are obviously unique, mutually exclusive (can't be stacked) and determine the majority of factors going into empire size.

Balanced: Numbers as they are now.
Expansionist: Colonies + Systems don't add as much empire size, pops add more
Infrastructure Focus: Colonies + Systems cost a lot more empire size, pops+district have massively reduced empire size impact
Xenophobic Unity: Massively reduced empire size from pops - except for xenos, those count a lot more. (to distinguish between expansionist and other xenophobe playstyles)

Maybe they could add in other small bonuses.
I.e. Infrastructure Focus would slightly reduce housing/amenity usage, expansionists adds planetary build speed + colony development speed

Although related to, i'd like it seperate from diplomatic stance, because it is internal and not external.
 
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I do not think empire size is meant to prevent certain playstyles. Larger empires are supposed to be more powerful than smaller empires. The empire size modifier merely changes those numbers. Remember that resource spent on expanding is a resource not spent on upgrading your empires to make them more efficient, offering you lots of benefit.
it is explicitly meant to do that. Or more accurately it is made to make tall playstyles viable. Yes larger empires are more powerful but they pay for that power in tech and unity costs, this is something that is common in 4X games. And as it stands there are not enough ways to upgrade an empire that doesn't involve getting as much territory as possible to make it competitive. Or to be precise not enough ways that a large empire cannot compensate by building more science labs.


I think throwing ideas into the forum and refining them with feedback are good steps to take before writing a suggestion.
i completely missed your post. It is a good idea. I'm going to write a version of it there immediatly

This is a topic that has been in long debate, and for good reason. The very foundations of such a topic are easily debatable, anything further built upon said foundation then becomes a bit.. for lack of a better word, shaky. Know my words act as a point of furthering the thoughts of this debate, rather then being argumentative.

Firstly, we have to decide what is considered balanced. Should being wide always be more effective then being tall? Tall has a natural advantage: the fact you don't have to work for it. Being tall simply means not conquering or expanding too greatly, so it's easy to per say play tall in the most literal sense. To play wide you have natural competitors, other empires vying for territory, and thus must work harder for it. If you were to go into a game with the idea of playing tall, well no one's stopping you from doing just that. So in theory, were you to make the two perfectly balanced, where going wide gains you little to no real additional research or unity due to increasing empire sprawl, and it took considerable effort to gain said territory, then what's really the point of going wide? Being more powerful militarily speaking, perhaps, but technology as it stands is the ruler of Stellaris, as it increases literally everything by substantial amounts in the game. In what might be interpreted as balanced, wide would in such a world be considered the lesser choice, until you've gained a technological leap that enemies can never hope to catch up to, and thus tall having no longer any use.

To some this may be entertaining, (especially those who roleplay their empires as such) but most dislike the idea of not being rewarded for a hard won conquest, and in this case, potentially even -harming- you. (since it'll be at the cost of technology and unity) Should wide then be slightly better? Marginally? Or is it okay that being tall would be the most powerful route from a gameplay perspective?

So now that I've added some thoughts, I'm now going to focus on my opinions on the matter. Ultimately, I think there should be more benefits to playing tall - rather then nerfing playing wide to the ground, I think it should be focused on making tall more viable. To me, encouraging playing tall to such a degree it becomes meta is far worse then what we have currently. This game as it stands isn't one of intrigue, this game largely focuses on war. There isn't a whole lot to do if you aren't planning for war. Technology is gained to have the upper hand and go to war, economy is enhanced to go to war, fleets are prepared to go to war. Tall and war aren't exclusive, but there aren't many benefits to gain from war if you're playing tall. It'd be an overall pretty boring game for a long time if the game's early to mid game revolved around going tall.

I think the gap is certainly as it stands too wide (pun intended) in between the two, but I'd personally focus on enhancing/buffing tall, rather then nerfing wide. Bridging the gap between the two too much will encourage a play-style that this game just simply isn't built for. The game isn't designed to make things interesting outside of war. Even diplomacy mostly focuses on aspects of war, (or keeping others from warring with you) with anything outside of that being a simple press of a button. For example, trade agreements while aren't directly war related, they also don't make anything more interesting about managing your empire. Playing wide plays into what this game was designed for, space age warfare. If the game was more interesting during peace time, such as managing your empire in fascinating ways then I'd be uttering different words for certain.

How would I buff playing tall? One way is to give them a -proper- diplomatic stance. Maybe two or three, for different empires. As it stands, there's a few really great choices for those playing wide, but almost none for tall. Maybe another new diplomatic stance is in order as well, something which increases empire sprawl dramatically from colonies but also increases technology, among potentially other things. I mean some serious benefits, but also be brutal about the weakness so that wide can't properly utilize it.

That's at least an idea, perhaps I'll think more on it to see if I can add anything more later.

I completely disagree and if anything it shows that you have a narrow view of Tall plays if you think it is lazy first even if you don't expand, you still have to defend yourself from would-be invaders. You still occupy a significant chunk of territory and with all your production bonuses and well-developed planets you're still a juicy target for anyone who manages to take over your territory. Think how fallen empires have little to no territory but give huge rewards to anyone that manages to beat them. You're not quite that far, but same principles.

Also, Tall plays require more fine-tuning and micromanagement, meaning you have to work on developing your economy. It's a different kind of fun sure, kinda like a management game. but it does require the world, making the game more about empire-building than expansion.

Finally the game does not revolve around war. The devs have expended all the diplomacy systems for a reason. It's a big part of it sure, one you probably can't escape, but that's not all there is to it. You can build a federation and take over the galaxy and without invading anyone.
 
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This game as it stands isn't one of intrigue, this game largely focuses on war. There isn't a whole lot to do if you aren't planning for war. Technology is gained to have the upper hand and go to war, economy is enhanced to go to war, fleets are prepared to go to war. Tall and war aren't exclusive, but there aren't many benefits to gain from war if you're playing tall. It'd be an overall pretty boring game for a long time if the game's early to mid game revolved around going tall.

That is true for most Paradox games unfortunately. Stellaris, EUIV and CK3 is all about war and peace is mainly about preparing your next war. Stellaris is a little different from EUIV and CK3 as it has a deeper economy than the other two. That said, as the game is about war - or preparing for war - once the initial exploration ends there's not much beyond war to do.

Most PDX games goes like this: Go to war --> get bigger --> get stronger = better --> at peace --> prepare war --> (repeat). Generally speaking, even games like CK3 which supposedly is about roleplaying a dynasty struggles a lot with the peace time, as there's simply not a lot to do. Stellaris is again slightly different, as there's the whole busy work and management going on.

Wide and Tall should in my opinion play differently with different problems. Tall empires should struggle with room and natural resources, which puts a natural limit to their tallness. The Wide empire should have difficulty in keeping outer planets in check. Many countries today have separatists or particularists craving for independence/autonomy. Now imagine a star empire. It should be harder to keep them loyal to your empire. This could be displayed via an Autonomy screen with 5 or so levels:
1: Centralized sector (completely at the whims of the capital)
2:
3: Semi-autonomy
4:
5: Autonomous sector (Autonomy on most politics)

I suppose it could be a simple % that you receive less of from that sector, but that also just feels bad and not interactive. Otherwise it could be a difference in politics, for instance your far-away sector decides that robots are actually just fine while it outlawed in the rest of your Empire.
 
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Most PDX games goes like this: Go to war --> get bigger --> get stronger = better --> at peace --> prepare war --> (repeat). Generally speaking, even games like CK3 which supposedly is about roleplaying a dynasty struggles a lot with the peace time, as there's simply not a lot to do. Stellaris is again slightly different, as there's the whole busy work and management going on.
I disagree somewhat.
Because while CK3 war is the easy go to, but i personally do a lot of other stuff.

Had a run that was basically just me focussing entirely on creating as many bastards as possible. Preferably in more controversial circumstances. (i.e. with nuns, queens and empresses)
Didn't start a single war. (Had quite a few though. made a lot of people angry...)

Also had a run in which i was just the spymaster of the byzantines and did nothing but blackmail people all day and amassed ridiculous wealth as a 1-county cyprus. Worked so well that i had maxed out my one county rather quickly and was more developed than Byzantium itself. (At that point i kind of hit the ceiling of what i could do with my wealth, unfortunately...)

But i do agree that there should be more long-term investments to grow your empire effectively without war.
A more compex trade and diplomacy system would be step. (I am looking forward to Vic3's diplomatic play system and trying that out.)

I think planetary ascensions are a great way of doing that, but the way they are right now they are way too costly for too small of a benefit.
The amounts of unity they swallow is ridiculous compared to the gain you have.
Investing into war will get you to economical improvements way faster. And that is the problem. Since playing wide gives you no real stability downside, you are always improving by expanding. That is an issue.
 
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empire size as is does not really work as intended. The objective of empire size and tech and unity reductions that comes from it is meant to prevent too much snowballing from empires that seek to get as many colonies and as many pops as possible i.e "wide empire" by counterbalancing their more significant economies by reducing their the ability to out-tech or out-unity other empire. But as it is now, those empires can easily offset the tech reductions by just building more research labs and more bureaucratic centers. Several people have done the math by now and calculated that it would take about 1000 pops for those empires to start feeling the effect of empire size with only the bare minimum of efforts to build labs and bureaucratic centers. This is not nearly enough. I know it's an unpopular opinion but we honestly need penalties that are 10 times bigger at the very least.
I don't think you're fully understanding the intention behind empire size. They've said quite clearly that it's not intended to make tall and wide exactly equal. It's just intended to reduce snowballing, which it does. Without empire size, if you double the size of your empire while doubling your science and unity output, you double your rate of acquiring technologies and traditions. With empire size, you double your size and output but your rate of acquiring new technologies and traditions doesn't double, but it does increase.

If empire size penalties are so intense that expanding while maintaining the same ratio of science and unity output actually results in a net loss, it's failing to achieve its goal. That's never been the intention, regardless of how much a portion of the player base wants it. Getting bigger and investing in expansion should always be rewarding. If choosing to do nothing instead of expanding is ever the better choice, the game will have taken a massive step backwards, not forwards.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you want the tall play style to be a proper strategy that's on par with wide, there needs to be two things.

First, pop growth has to be decoupled from colony count.

Second, there has to be mechanics that expand upwards that are as powerful and interesting as wide expansion is.

You can tweak empire size all you want, but that's not the proper path forward if the goal is to make tall equal to wide.
 
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empire size as is does not really work as intended. The objective of empire size and tech and unity reductions that comes from it is meant to prevent too much snowballing from empires that seek to get as many colonies and as many pops as possible i.e "wide empire" by counterbalancing their more significant economies by reducing their the ability to out-tech or out-unity other empire. But as it is now, those empires can easily offset the tech reductions by just building more research labs and more bureaucratic centers. Several people have done the math by now and calculated that it would take about 1000 pops for those empires to start feeling the effect of empire size with only the bare minimum of efforts to build labs and bureaucratic centers. This is not nearly enough. I know it's an unpopular opinion but we honestly need penalties that are 10 times bigger at the very least.

I know there was a lot of backlash about the empire size mechanic but it is honestly something necessary for the balance of the game. There was a similar backlash when the devs introduced pop growth reductions from population size too but ultimately people got used to it, especially after the introduction of a slider in the setting of the game to regulate that growth penalty. Why can't we have a similar slider for empire size penalties? It would be an easy solution for a lot of issues.

It is not a perfect solution, however. As many people have pointed out already, decreasing the empire size from pops and increasing the sprawl from the number of districts, systems, and colonies in a given empire would make sprawl affect a wide empire more efficiently.

I have a few suggestions on my own that are more roleplay or player choice-focused since the dev tends to prefer those. Maybe the empire capital and colonies within systems linked to the empire capital by hyper relays network could get a reduction of the empire size they generate? It would force the empire to choose between spending their alloys on acquiring more colonies or on making sure they are correctly linked and managed, and a habitat-focused empire would get a lot of mileage out of this. And it would make sense from a roleplay perspective as a better-connected empire with a better infrastructure would be easier to manage.

Factions could decrease sprawl from pops in the same way they increase unity from pops. Meaning that en empire would have to spend time to make sure their population is happy or at least fall in line properly or see their empire becoming harder to manage. I would suggest increasing the base unity pop produce for this very reason.

Alternatively, there is the planetary ascension system which brings me to my second point. I like the concept of planetary ascension. But I think that as it is, it is not worth the cost. At best this is something for the empire to dump their unity on in the late game where there is nowhere else to spend unity. And it works well in that specific scenario. But beyond that it is useless. Which is a shame. Since ascending a tier reduce the empire size of the planet, I was thinking that by avoiding expanding too quickly and ascending well-populated planets there would be a way to mitigate Empire size, again putting in the player's hands the choice to expand as much as possible for maximum economic power, or expend carefully, but in a way that doesn't increase empire size so an empire can reach a decent amount of territory while still being able to tech or unity rush.

But in practice, the bonuses are too weak. It could stand a little more empire size reduction, something like 6-8% per tier. And especially it needs to increase the production a lot more to make the upgrading competitive, and a valid choice to spend unity on rather than edicts or ascension perks. To be fair I think the latter point is less due to the ascension system itself and more the fact it works through the increase of the bonuses from planetary designation, which does not work well with that system. The bonuses from designation aren't all that great. The main problem is outside of designations focused on producing basic resources, designations reduce the upkeep and cost rather than increasing production. You can only reduce metallurgist or researcher upkeep so much. If instead designation increased the production of those jobs like they do for basic resources, it would be a lot better.

I understand why designations are like that. though. That's why i suggest to add in the tech tree, especially the society tech tree, technologies that upgrade planetary designations effects, adding production bonuses that would be gated behind technology.

But what do you think ? Can i get a dev's opinion on this ?
Empire size and it's iterations are a symptome of the failed progression system (science and unity). They are abstracted element being designed to act like ressource to be produced and consumed which cause obvious balance issue. The most effective solution would be for science to be overhaued in the same manner that the archeolgic and espionnage system was, while the unity mechanic would be redesigned alike the federal cohesion mechanic each in their own way.


Second, Stellaris isn't sid's Civillization game; They have no wide or tall dynamism in play. They have an ethics system in place that may emulate some characteristic from civ. You can have a fanatic pacifist xenophobe build min-maxing empire size leveraging their own assets ( wide ) or a fanatic militarist xenophile focused on leveraging their vassal insted ( tall )


And last the pop reduction resolved nothing. In contrary, it is a statement of a amateurish developpemet further unbalancing the game and made a case for the abstraction of the pop system that pds was never able to solve.
 
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