Empire Religion Expansion

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

According to Dr. Michio Kaku many scientists are religious or spiritualist. Einstein himself said that he doesn't believe in the God that grants wishes from prayers or what he called the interventionalist God. But he believes in the orderly and elegant God, Enstein argued that the mathematical equations like his that defined the universe didnt have to fit on a scrap of paper, but for some reason does. He, like many scientists, believed that the universe doesn't have to be logical or that it doesn't have to be explainable by math, but it is, and Einstein says that that is proof of a God.

Einstein's God is a complex issue. He certainly rejected theistic belief (and was indeed openly contemptuous of it) but used religious imagery a great deal when he described the universe. Some people have called him a Deist, while others have claimed that he was a Pantheist, or that he simply liked to use religious symbolism in his speech.

It's not impossible that he changed his views over his lifetime; we know that he was prone to mood swings and to those moments where you look back at your past and wince at the person you used to be. It's also not impossible that he deliberately misrepresented his opinions, either to avoid having to discuss them, or just for the lulz. (Einstein was, it must be pointed out, fond of the lulz.)

I respect Michio Kaku but I feel that trying to use Einstein as an example of religiosity in science is a bad idea. The only thing we know for a fact about Einstein is that a) he hated priests, and b) he self-described as variously pantheistic and agnostic.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

AGNOSTICISM DETECTED!

As in no point of the TOPIC of the thread...

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

I think his point is that religion is not opposed to science and visaversa, but it is probably a little off topic. (Or at least very likely to become off topic)

So back the the main point:


How would you use factions to do religions?

Certain factions that contain a majority of spiritual pops could get religious traits and even be a religious movement trying to push dogma and fanatic spiritualism on an empire or try to form their own Theocratic empire.

I just think that delving too deep into religion when the vast majority of Empires in Stellaris could care less about it is sort of resources shoved in the wrong direction and will just emphasize one tiny bit of the Ethos tree unjustly.

There should be a broader mechanic that include all Ethos's in some way shape or form.

 

[Sir Leningrad]

Religions, if well made, like in EUIV would be interesting, for internal politics as well as for diplomacy. Nevertheless I don-'t like that every empire has just one religion at the start unless they are some kind of theocracy. Each planet have thousands of millions of inhabitants, it should have at least 3 or 4 major religions, wich would further complicate things. I don-'t think that Paradox is ever going to do that.

 

[BrokenSky]

Certain factions that contain a majority of spiritual pops could get religious traits and even be a religious movement trying to push dogma and fanatic spiritualism on an empire or try to form their own Theocratic empire.

I just think that delving too deep into religion when the vast majority of Empires in Stellaris could care less about it is sort of resources shoved in the wrong direction and will just emphasize one tiny bit of the Ethos tree unjustly.

There should be a broader mechanic that include all Ethos's in some way shape or form.

Well I'm assuming other expansions will do similar things. The War Expansion will benefit militarists. The trade and espionage expansions will benefit pacifists. If they put in the refugee mechanics in that one thread, xenophiles will be benefited. When they do an AI expansion, materialists will be benefited. So if they do a religion expansion, spiritualists being benefited isn't going to be a big deal.

And when I saw benefited, I mean that it will make the play-style associated with the ethos more interesting, not necessarily strictly better.

Edit: but yeah every one of these expansions would still benefit everyone, but each focuses on an area that one ethos already focuses on.

 

[blallo]

I just think that delving too deep into religion when the vast majority of Empires in Stellaris could care less about it is sort of resources shoved in the wrong direction and will just emphasize one tiny bit of the Ethos tree unjustly.

this is correct. there is an easy fix, instead of a religion dlc, a belief dlc that gives to every ethos possible Ideas to unlock while playing.
for example:
militaristic: defensive doctrine, offensive doctrine, cult of strength...
xenophile: loving your neighbor, multiculturalism....

1 or more of this ideas can be combined into an ideology (that can recive a name from the player, so can be thought as a religion) and each pop has one of thise ideology, then they spread like ethos now does.

 

[Trithemius]

As in no point of the TOPIC of the thread...

I think there is a error here in talking about the personal cosmological (ontological? teleological? all of the above?) convictions associated with what we often term "religion" and the socio-economic and normative ethical systems that we also often term "religion" because they are often radically different despite having ostensibly common origins.

It seems that the religion under discussion here is necessarily the latter rather than the former since it is mostly related to the effect of such systems on the administration of the state (i.e. what the game is about). It is possible to have these features be tied to nationalism, or cults of personality, or the like without relating them to spiritual teachings. All that is necessary is a compelling narrative that can inspire commitment from adherents who then engage with the socio-economic and ethical system actively.

It is reasonable to imagine the features in the OP as being associated with militarist nationalism or other 'mass movements'. In Stellaris terms I would see them as Edicts associated with non-Indivualistic forms of Government rather than with Spiritualism. @Rory1237 and @BrokenSky have said similar things (I think, according to my interpretation.

Discussing the existence or non- of God seems irrelevant to the discussion since it is about the specifics of the convictions rather than their societal impact so I wonder why you mention it.

 

[Trithemius]

Also - because I can't work out a nice way of saying it - people should go and read Olaf Stapledon's Star Maker. Probably Last and First Men too.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

Well I'm assuming other expansions will do similar things. The War Expansion will benefit militarists. The trade and espionage expansions will benefit pacifists. If they put in the refugee mechanics in that one thread, xenophiles will be benefited. When they do an AI expansion, materialists will be benefited. So if they do a religion expansion, spiritualists being benefited isn't going to be a big deal.

And when I saw benefited, I mean that it will make the play-style associated with the ethos more interesting, not necessarily strictly better.

Edit: but yeah every one of these expansions would still benefit everyone, but each focuses on an area that one ethos already focuses on.

I'm not saying that things will not be just unfairly touched or influenced... I just think the concept of religion are a bit small on the scale of Stellaris... it would have to be part of something bigger with a greater impact in internal and to some extent external political, social mechanics. Religions are such a small part of the possible philosophical ideas and social movements that could influence pops and governments... that is all I mean.

I have nothing in particular against adding concepts such as religion, in fact I would like such mechanics added to the game.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

I think there is a error here in talking about the personal cosmological (ontological? teleological? all of the above?) convictions associated with what we often term "religion" and the socio-economic and normative ethical systems that we also often term "religion" because they are often radically different despite having ostensibly common origins.

It seems that the religion under discussion here is necessarily the latter rather than the former since it is mostly related to the effect of such systems on the administration of the state (i.e. what the game is about). It is possible to have these features be tied to nationalism, or cults of personality, or the like without relating them to spiritual teachings. All that is necessary is a compelling narrative that can inspire commitment from adherents who then engage with the socio-economic and ethical system actively.

It is reasonable to imagine the features in the OP as being associated with militarist nationalism or other 'mass movements'. In Stellaris terms I would see them as Edicts associated with non-Indivualistic forms of Government rather than with Spiritualism. @Rory1237 and @BrokenSky have said similar things (I think, according to my interpretation.

Discussing the existence or non- of God seems irrelevant to the discussion since it is about the specifics of the convictions rather than their societal impact so I wonder why you mention it.

I would have no problem with an expansion with this sort of theme, I would welcome it.

 

[AlfredMV]

There are so many examples in sci-fi of religious societies such as war hammer, Dr who (the church), star trek (various), star wars (the jedi, spiritualist and religious), etc

It would be interesting to be able to have a state religion to keep the game play how it already is, focused on the state with pops being limited to Ethos. As is there is no way for pops to have individual religions so it has to be tied to spiritualist, but it's can't replace spiritualism. It must be a choice to have a state religion (clergy taking over, which is why it must be tied to theocratic Governments not spiritualist empires) which has pros and cons. State religions would take a lot of influence so you can't do as many standard policies, or hire as many leaders, etc. It should not be a straight buff to those governments but add depth and flavor to your empire and other empires.

Along with this I would propose a similar system for the military governments (dictator, junta, republic) where instead of a state religion, there would be an honor system (like the Samurai). There could be a policy for recruitment, drafting (cheaper armies), professionalism (stronger armies), mercenaries (more happiness for militaristic pops) etc.

The same goes for the materialist governments and pacifist governments. The reason I didn't lay out a full plan for them, is because they deserve a full topic each. This would be big, and I would hope to have it complete over 4 expansions, which each one dedicated to one of these concepts and whatever else they are adding. It's worked well for eu4 to split up the government and religious mechanics Dlc, it can work here to.

 

[Turin the Mad]

The latter part of the last Blorgstream shows a variety of edicts at the 'imperial' and planetary levels. Anything religious et al can slide right in. Some of the edicts that can be seen already come close...

 

[AlfredMV]

The latter part of the last Blorgstream shows a variety of edicts at the 'imperial' and planetary levels. Anything religious et al can slide right in. Some of the edicts that can be seen already come close...

It would be wonderful if they're added in. For all the different governments.

 

[danest]

Considering we've got technologically savvy aliens as odd as a sentient space fungus, it seems the territory is ripe for religions and cultures and political systems that aren't even found on Earth in any form. Hive mind is one example that I think is already in the game.

 

[Yenzen]

As with the fanatically individualist edict, there will be special edicts, technology, events and event decisions for spiritualist factions.

I don't disagree with the OP that it could be improved and expanded upon somehow, but let's see how it works in the game first. I fear a lot of dislikes happen because people are exhausted with endless posts trying to improve upon the game even before release.

 

[KonradKurze202]

Nothing in your OP discuss the primary problem of religion in Stellaris.

In EU/CK/Vichy everyone is human, each religion is based off humanity (Judeo-Christian religions have God create Man in His image, etc), so even though Europe was traditionally Christian it could make sense that super India spreads Hinduism through Europe and that people will convert.
In Stellaris the Bird people of Sigmatus worship their ancestor spirits, who guide them through subtle influence. Why would the lizard people of Feodoran worship dead bird spirits? Why would any species worship any of the Judeo-Christian Gods who created Man in His image, and kinda gave up on everyone else? The Fungoids of Aranis worship their star as the Life Giver (not every star, just their own star), so why would some species born half a galaxy away worship the Aranis star?

Could a species religion spread? Sure, if it was non-species centric in any fashion, maybe space Buddhism could spread. But Christianity, Ancestor Worship, etc, etc, etc, would not spread beyond their species. So either you have some religions that effect only their own species (which kinda negates the point of having religion as a mechanic in the first place), or you have some unrealistic nonsense of just because humanity conquered the Molluscoids of planet Scallophead suddenly they can send some priests there and convert the planet to Catholicism.
Religion belongs in Stellaris as a Role Playing element, you can decide all the aspects of the religion on your own, but they have 0 effect on the game (beyond taking Spiritual Ethos). So basically, it is best as it is now.

 

[Yenzen]

Nothing in your OP discuss the primary problem of religion in Stellaris.

In EU/CK/Vichy everyone is human, each religion is based off humanity (Judeo-Christian religions have God create Man in His image, etc), so even though Europe was traditionally Christian it could make sense that super India spreads Hinduism through Europe and that people will convert.
In Stellaris the Bird people of Sigmatus worship their ancestor spirits, who guide them through subtle influence. Why would the lizard people of Feodoran worship dead bird spirits? Why would any species worship any of the Judeo-Christian Gods who created Man in His image, and kinda gave up on everyone else? The Fungoids of Aranis worship their star as the Life Giver (not every star, just their own star), so why would some species born half a galaxy away worship the Aranis star?

Could a species religion spread? Sure, if it was non-species centric in any fashion, maybe space Buddhism could spread. But Christianity, Ancestor Worship, etc, etc, etc, would not spread beyond their species. So either you have some religions that effect only their own species (which kinda negates the point of having religion as a mechanic in the first place), or you have some unrealistic nonsense of just because humanity conquered the Molluscoids of planet Scallophead suddenly they can send some priests there and convert the planet to Catholicism.
Religion belongs in Stellaris as a Role Playing element, you can decide all the aspects of the religion on your own, but they have 0 effect on the game (beyond taking Spiritual Ethos). So basically, it is best as it is now.

Are you trying to tell me that sending my court chaplain to the planet Water World isn't going to work? I'm sure they'd enjoy stories of a wandering preacher yelling at barren fig trees and calling random peoples generations of vipers.

Overall I agree with you, the main problem would be, even if you had generic 'rites' you could select, that the game would assume that any spiritualist POPs you integrated were of your religion. Even so, it's likely that special 'edicts' that spiritualist empires can use kind of assume the same, but are even more generic.

(interesting point about Buddhism. I remember in Mass Effect, it was one of the few Human religions that had a small alien following)

 

[AlfredMV]

Nothing in your OP discuss the primary problem of religion in Stellaris.

In EU/CK/Vichy everyone is human, each religion is based off humanity (Judeo-Christian religions have God create Man in His image, etc), so even though Europe was traditionally Christian it could make sense that super India spreads Hinduism through Europe and that people will convert.
In Stellaris the Bird people of Sigmatus worship their ancestor spirits, who guide them through subtle influence. Why would the lizard people of Feodoran worship dead bird spirits? Why would any species worship any of the Judeo-Christian Gods who created Man in His image, and kinda gave up on everyone else? The Fungoids of Aranis worship their star as the Life Giver (not every star, just their own star), so why would some species born half a galaxy away worship the Aranis star?

Could a species religion spread? Sure, if it was non-species centric in any fashion, maybe space Buddhism could spread. But Christianity, Ancestor Worship, etc, etc, etc, would not spread beyond their species. So either you have some religions that effect only their own species (which kinda negates the point of having religion as a mechanic in the first place), or you have some unrealistic nonsense of just because humanity conquered the Molluscoids of planet Scallophead suddenly they can send some priests there and convert the planet to Catholicism.
Religion belongs in Stellaris as a Role Playing element, you can decide all the aspects of the religion on your own, but they have 0 effect on the game (beyond taking Spiritual Ethos). So basically, it is best as it is now.

Your ancestral spirits example works for foreign pops to. But what I'm saying is a state institution not personal religion. If the bird people conquer the lizard people, the state says and lizard people spirits are also important! Over time the lizard people would convert.

Let's use a real world example. The Catholic church. Let's say they own the world and go to space. We meet mushroom people! The Pope declares God created the mushroom people as equals! It's obvious as they are powerful like us! Easy

In many sci-fi there is a state religion or space pope. It makes sense. Of course you have to modify your state religion to appease the aliens and convert them, but a government religion can do just that. If the ruler is a speaker for their religion, anything they say goes.

 

[Yenzen]

Over time the lizard people would convert.

I don't think they would be any more likely to convert than any random materialist. Just because you're spiritualist doesn't mean every religion is as good as another.

 

[AlfredMV]

I don't think they would be any more likely to convert than any random materialist. Just because you're spiritualist doesn't mean every religion is as good as another.

We can only use human examples but it's happened many times. Of course it will be abstracted so it won't be exact but that's OK.