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jamhaw

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From the southern resource area, of course. Only in this scenario bought from the newly independent nations and exchanged for finished products from Japanese industries that were not fire and nuke bombed in the Pacific war that never was.

Why does the Empire of Japan have to be ossified into the 1950s? Why not a large, dynamic and hard working people that suddenly is no longer blocked from their natural trading partners by European colonial empires sees a rush of prosperity and the political reforms that comes with prosperity across all social strata?

I.E. Why can't the Empire of Japan do for "war torn" (civil or colonial) East and Southeast Asia what the USA did for Europe? Minus all the free stuff (will be traded for natural resources).

With policy changes I don't see why Japan and Korea cannot have a "better together" existence a la England/Scotland. The Chinese (or Soviet, take your pick) Elephant in the room is a good marriage councilor I would imagine.

Manchuria is the problem though. But what a chip to trade away to china (if china is nationalist controlled) or to hold over the falling dominoes people in Washington D.C. (if china is communist).

Japan in the 1930's was not some weak banana republic like Portugal or Spain. Does its only hope for success rest in white peoples hands? I find that hard to believe.

Decolonization would be significantly delayed/altered possibly even avoided absent Japan humiliating the Europeans in 1941-42. Long term we would probably see dominion type governments maintaining close economic and military ties with the imperial metropole. The existence of a strong Japan would play a role in preserving this.
 

Capt. Kiwi

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Essentially this, but I want to emphasize how bad the government by assassination era really was. Japanese politics in the mid-1930s was such that 11 naval officers could march into the Prime Minister's house, murder him in cold blood, and get off with a slap on the wrist (the May 15 incident). A coup attempt in 1931, the Imperial Colors Incident, sought the assassination of much of the government, including the Prime Minister, Grand Chamberlain, and Foreign Minister, a blanket ban on political parties, and the "restoration" (based on a romanticized view of the Meiji Restoration) of the Showa Emperor against the perceived corruption of the Western democratic government; it ended with a sentence of less than a month's time under house arrest for only two of the ringleaders, and in fact, one of the said ringleaders, Kingoro Hashimoto, would go on to play a role both in politics and the war with China. The secret tribunals and executions that marked the effective destruction of the Imperial Way faction after the failure of the February 26 Incident (which you'll find to be a general naming trend; all of these putch attempts, assassinations, and the like tend to just be marked down in history as little "incidents") was not a triumph of civilian authority over the military, but a power-purge by their political rivals in the military (chief among them Hideki Tojo, who would eventually become Prime Minister), who proceeded to co-opt the faction in their own way.

Essentially, and forgive the edit, government by assassination ended not because militarism had ended in Japan, but because it had won: after the February 26 incident, in spite of the failure of the Imperial Way, the civilian government now served solely at the pleasure of the Army and Navy. The Okada government that formed in the wake of the collapse of the immediately-preceding cabinet in the wake of this incident was compelled to nominate officers based on the preferences of the serving Minister of War, and the military could compel the fall of the government simply by withdrawing the Minister of War and/or the Minister of the Navy while refusing to nominate a replacement, forcing a new cabinet to be formed. Political pressures subsequent to this in the lead-up to World War 2 therefore no longer are a matter of military versus civilian or right-wing versus left-wing, or even between factions within the Army, but rather simply between the Army and Navy: rather than peace or war, it's which nations the war will be waged against.

And when the Army-Navy government finally agreed to peace in August 1945 (in several cases "stood idle and allowed it to happen" rather than "agreed"), there were immediate coup and assassination attempts.
 
C

Calad

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The Chinese people may have wanted it, Chiang abhorred the idea. For Chiang, the greatest enemy (and not coincidentally the greatest threat to his power) was the Communist party, part of the reason he had spent the past 10 years campaigning for their destruction (with only limited success). War with the Japanese presented Chiang with too many problems, the most obvious being the enormous and battle hardened Japanese army eager to conquer the country without any scruples as regards the destruction of people and places, but also the loss of his power base in Jiangsu and Zheijiang provinces, the rather speedy destruction of his still under (German) construction modern divisions and the loss of those diplomatic contacts which had enabled the construction of those forces in the first place. Moreover in the event of a prolonged conflict with the Japanese, the continued existence of the Chinese Communist Party would provide a viable alternative source of leadership for occupied China, which would be untainted by the Kuomintang's experiences of government, which is what happened historically and what provided the CPC with much of their support base in the subsequent civil war.

It's only once the war became an inevitability and popular opinion made the alternatives unpalatable the war that Chiang ended up overtaken by events and reconciled himself to fighting the war. The war Chiang would have liked to wage in 1937 would have been (in Barbara Tuchman's view atleast) against the vices of spitting, swearing, smoking and the socialists, not the Japanese.
Chinese Communist party was almost exterminated in 1937. With their last resources they managed to walk into remote region of China, they had no industry nor foreign support. It would have been only matter of time before Nationalist would have destroyed them complitely but Chiang was forced to make peace with them and concentrated on Japanese.
 
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Calad

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And when the Army-Navy government finally agreed to peace in August 1945 (in several cases "stood idle and allowed it to happen" rather than "agreed"), there were immediate coup and assassination attempts.
Japanese military was largely extreamly fatalistic organization and had almost nihilistic characteristic. When country was complitely destroyed and ready to surrender some lunatics still wanted to continue war. Okiwana campaign is also a good example how little Japanese military minded of its citizens.
 

JodelDiplom

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Japanese military was largely extreamly fatalistic organization and had almost nihilistic characteristic. When country was complitely destroyed and ready to surrender some lunatics still wanted to continue war. Okiwana campaign is also a good example how little Japanese military minded of its citizens.
They weren't entirely fanatic. Japan's modern identity was built on a top-down education approach whereby the ideals of obedience, soldierly loyalty, and national greatness were rammed down peoples' throats with the aim of turning Japan into something like an Asian Prussia. Dissent and political openness were not really that high on the agenda. You must not forget that the whole military-fascist craziness happened as a reaction to the really serious economic and social crisis that happened in Japan after WW1. They had serious problems finding markets for their goods (textiles and toys, basically, as was already mentioned) and that caused huge unemployment and communist agitation in the 1920s. Many more mature democracies succumbed to the lure of fascism in that time when the legitimate institutions couldn't solve their crises. Japan was just one of them.

There's a saying about how even paranoid people can have real enemies - Japan in the 1930s was a paranoid nation, but the problems that the military-fascist leaders sought to solve were not imagined, they were real.
 

Nicophorus

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With or without the Pacific War, I do not think countries like the Netherlands or Portugal (or UK/France) were keeping any of their large colonies more then a few extra years post our IRL timeline.

Someone commented on lack of arms to Korea as being a reason why they were easier to subdue and keep colonized.

Guess who could funnel in weapons and moral support to the Vietnamese, Indonesian, etc disodents both during and after the European ww2?

Guess who would be very grateful afterwards when (not if) they got their independence? Then comes the markets and resources the Empire of Japan needed so badly.

edit: Speaking of Korea again. It was agreement between Japan and..... The USA, that blessed the Empire of Japan's takeover of that country. The USA got Japan's blessing for their own Philipeens holdings. This was not a Manchukou moment, it was a sanctioned take over.

I suppose the Empire of Japan could not really help themselves and play their cards better during this era though, if their whole political establishment was a lunatic fringe. But then again it takes just one revolution to sweep all that away. Meiji Restoration anyone?
 

JodelDiplom

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With or without the Pacific War, I do not think countries like the Netherlands or Portugal (or UK/France) were keeping any of their large colonies more then a few extra years post our IRL timeline.
If France and the Netherlands come under German occupation, then certainly their colonies will start to go their own ways.

I wonder, though... if the Japanese do not seize the opportunity to take over the Dutch and French colonies, who will?

If the pacific remains peaceful, the British in India or the Americans may swoop in and push their own agendas in those colonies: The British would seek to preserve colonial rule, the Americans would encourage the natives to seize power and become American clients.

If the British can focus on the European war and their rule in Asia isn't shaken by the effort of fighting Japan, then I could see India remaining British for a few more years, and the transition being somewhat smoother. Also, the Dutch and French may temporarily reassert themselves after WW2 if unrest in those colonies was kept under some sort of lid by the colonial authorities backed by British support. The independence wars would only start later, when the post-war malaise hits all the European countries and new players such as the United Nations and the USSR assert their anti-colonialist stances.

Here's perhaps an interesting idea:

What if Japan does NOT launch its own war of conquest in the pacific, and INSTEAD declares war on Germany some time around 1942-1943??

If they are intent on not siding with the Axis, then it makes sense to join the fight against them just so that they can have a seat at the peace conferences. And if the The Japanese Empire signs the Atlantic Charter, and contributes to the war against Germany, then the US/UK would more or less have to concede them a permanent seat on the UN Security Council - in place of China, perhaps, if Chiang stays out or fails to advance the Chinese diplomatic position vis-a-vis Japan. Imagine what a funky post-war world that would be.
:eek:hmy:

Would the victorious powers even want to create a UN Security Council, if it meant having to share that with outspoken anti-democratic dictatorships like Japan? With the USSR, in 1944-1945 you could at least pretend that they shared the notion of enlightenment, democracy and human rights, although in a warped, communist way, and you might just choose to ignore their actual shortcomings in the name of the common struggle against Nazism. With Japan... that could be more difficult unless Japan reforms its government and adopts at least a facade of being in favor of democracy and human rights.
 

krieger11b

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I can picture continuing cooperation between Germany and Nat. China, and increasing pressure on Mao's forces, unless the SU decides to intervene. The picture I get, with Germany eventually at war with the SU, and China nominally supporting Germany (but probably not actively involved) is again quite different from what the OP is suggesting.

Not allying to Japan in 1938 means another year of critical tungsten importation for Germany, maybe even until 1941 if the SU allowed it to be transported via the Siberian Railroad. That would have quite an effect as Germany was the only nation with the technology to create Tungsten Carbide in WW2. Which made for some fantastic lightweight anti tank guns performing far better than the same sized steel core AP round. Plus the lack of tungsten made the German jet engines last only about 10-20 hours before randomly exploding since they were made of steel instead.

I don't know how much of Barbarrosa was planned with Japan actually getting invovled, but if at the very least far more of the Siberian units around the Japanese border were already along the German/Soviet front means their likely destruction instead of their critical contribution at the Battle of Moscow when Soviet Tactics/Stalin were less insane when fighting Germany. Not to mention the small detail of the US likely never entering the war.

So in the end the post WW2 no Japan in Axis scenerio heavily depends on what happens in with WW2.
 

Nicophorus

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Jodel brings up a interesting point.

Japan could play the "let me take care of your colonies" game like USA did with Iceland. No war with China, yet chaos and civil war in China so Japan moves in to stabilize a derelict Indochina (perhaps even use the Indochina war with Thailand as a further excuse). What could the allies say? Especially when the Vichy invite the Japanese in?

It was no secret USA was not favorable to the European regimes ruling over Indonesia, etc. Rebellion fostered by the Japanese and then them becoming those new countries patrons would give the Japanese their co prosperity sphere without war.

With Indonesian oil and Korean/Manchurian coal and steel, the Japanese Empire continues its industrialization and if the allies tolerated Facist Franco in Spain in the cold war era, how much more would they value a Facist Empire of Japan watching over Communist East Asia? Who better to keep those dominoes from falling in Korea, Indochina, etc...???

Asia for the Asians, and capitalist/right-wing Asians >>>> Viet Cong and whatever the other movements were called in the rest of Asia.

The Empire of Japan could of been used as a anti-communist model and sponsor for the rest of Asia. Instead we got various western puppets like Sygnman Rhee and Nyo Dien Zim.
 

Culise

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Jodel brings up a interesting point.

Japan could play the "let me take care of your colonies" game like USA did with Iceland. No war with China, yet chaos and civil war in China so Japan moves in to stabilize a derelict Indochina (perhaps even use the Indochina war with Thailand as a further excuse). What could the allies say? Especially when the Vichy invite the Japanese in?

It was no secret USA was not favorable to the European regimes ruling over Indonesia, etc. Rebellion fostered by the Japanese and then them becoming those new countries patrons would give the Japanese their co prosperity sphere without war.

With Indonesian oil and Korean/Manchurian coal and steel, the Japanese Empire continues its industrialization and if the allies tolerated Facist Franco in Spain in the cold war era, how much more would they value a Facist Empire of Japan watching over Communist East Asia? Who better to keep those dominoes from falling in Korea, Indochina, etc...???

Asia for the Asians, and capitalist/right-wing Asians >>>> Viet Cong and whatever the other movements were called in the rest of Asia.

The Empire of Japan could of been used as a anti-communist model and sponsor for the rest of Asia. Instead we got various western puppets like Sygnman Rhee and Nyo Dien Zim.
Indeed, and thank heavens for that; both of the examples of puppets you give (though I assume you mean Ngô Đình Diệm by the latter; "Zim" isn't even a Vietnamese name) were weak enough that, in spite of their authoritarian brutality, they were both eventually and relatively painlessly toppled and replaced in the early 1960s, regardless of "East" (the ultimate victors in Vietnam) or "West" (likewise in Korea). Just musing in a bit of stream-of-consciousness, but a powerful fascist Japan would have only continued to maintained these territories as resource-bases for their industry and population, for all that they established those factories abroad as well as in the Home Isles; this would have caused them to stagnate economically, and unlike the strongmen you list, Japan might have been strong enough to continue to enforce this status due to an untouchable, distant, and continuously loyal base of power in the near term (say, a decade or two). Even if Communist-funded insurgencies supplied by the USSR and PRC across the shared land borders with the latter began and grew powerful as in the case of those against several European colonies in Africa, the Japanese perception of Korea in particular as an inviolable "lebensraum" critical to fuel their economy, to borrow the term, would only strengthen their resolve, and if it succeeded in causing significant losses, would only force ever more powerful encroachment by the military in Japanese civilian life until eventually something gives, much as in Portugal with the Carnation Revolution or in Spain after the death of Francisco Franco. However, unlike Portugal, it would not be the military supporting a democratic coup, but rather the exact opposite, and unlike Spain, there would be no single powerful figure in the military whose death would signify the collapse of the system; it would likely be a bloody, bloody affair not only on the Home Isles, but also and especially in the colonies where decades of resentment would crystallize in an instant. Even historically, South Korea before Park Chung-hee was in many respects as poor as or poorer than Africa; a Korea that wins its independence late, only after a long and bloody conflict sore with massive inflicted wounds and trauma, under a united Communist government such as the one that so tremendously mismanaged their originally-superior economic situation in the North would be disastrous for the people of Korea. Still worse, that would still be better than the alternative of their failure, which would invite even further Japanese reprisals, and considering that Japanese colonial habits by the early 1940s already included the assimilation of all Koreans into good little second-class Japanese, the elimination of the Korean language, the use of forced laborers and comfort women, and human experimentation for medical research, that does not bode well. As for the Home Isles, a Japan that makes no clean break with its past, limping from national trauma to national trauma...I highly doubt it would come off that much better.

As for whether the West would intervene to preserve Fascist Japan? Well, as I recall, the Americans played a key role in the death of Ngô Đình Diệm, in spite of the fact that he was their dog. When Syngman Rhee fell, they evacuated him from Seoul, but did absolutely nothing to restore him to power - the same goes for the assassination of the second major strongman of Korean politics, Park Chung-hee, an act which the US had little involvement with (unlike in Vietnam) but did not regret at all. When the Portuguese Estado Novo was toppled, the Americans practically cracked open a bottle of champagne in celebration of their decolonizationist policies being followed by yet another democratic government: as you yourself say, the US was no friend of colonial powers in general, even when those colonial powers opposed Communism; they much preferred to support domestic right-wing governments, and in fact had been funding Angolan rebels against Portugal since 1961. In Spain, though he had been useful after 1955, only a handful of people seriously mourned Francisco Franco or the end of his system of governance. In fact, let's take the Portuguese example one further - Angola's independence ended not in the victory of the American-backed rebels, but with the formation of a socialist single-party state. Mozambique declared independence as the People's Republic of Mozambique, which was still actually supported by the UK as a counterweight to Rhodesia, and the American CIA's attempts to support the right-wing rebel RENAMO were stymied not by foreign involvement, but by the US State Department itself, which flatly refused to recognize or deal with that particular terrorist group; RENAMO's support thus had to come primarily from apartheid states like South Africa and Rhodesia.

So, basically, likely a Communist united basket-case Korea, Communist united less-sane-than-historical,-but-still-more-sane-than-Korea Vietnam, and a basket-case Japan trying to put together a democratic or at least slightly less fascist government for the first time since their brief fling with it in the 1920s.
 
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JodelDiplom

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Jodel brings up a interesting point.

Japan could play the "let me take care of your colonies" game like USA did with Iceland. No war with China, yet chaos and civil war in China so Japan moves in to stabilize a derelict Indochina (perhaps even use the Indochina war with Thailand as a further excuse). What could the allies say? Especially when the Vichy invite the Japanese in?

It was no secret USA was not favorable to the European regimes ruling over Indonesia, etc. Rebellion fostered by the Japanese and then them becoming those new countries patrons would give the Japanese their co prosperity sphere without war.

With Indonesian oil and Korean/Manchurian coal and steel, the Japanese Empire continues its industrialization and if the allies tolerated Facist Franco in Spain in the cold war era, how much more would they value a Facist Empire of Japan watching over Communist East Asia? Who better to keep those dominoes from falling in Korea, Indochina, etc...???

Asia for the Asians, and capitalist/right-wing Asians >>>> Viet Cong and whatever the other movements were called in the rest of Asia.

The Empire of Japan could of been used as a anti-communist model and sponsor for the rest of Asia. Instead we got various western puppets like Sygnman Rhee and Nyo Dien Zim.
Yes I think that is what the Japanese would like to see happen.

However, Culise raised another important point: Japan was not a rich country, and even though they lliked to portray themselves as the rich liberator uncle of Asia, who helps little oppressed countries free themselves, the Japanese actually were in no position to provide the sort of economic help that newly freed colonies would want.

You have to see what Japan really was in the 1930s and 1940s, how the economical and political situations related: Japanese standards of living in that time were shit, stagnated even, and the slide into authoritarianism and harsh state-enforced discipline among its citizens were in part a reaction to the fact that the Japanese people were unhappy about this. When societies adopt militaristic policies, when they try to make their citizens feel and behave more like soldiers than like consumers, it's often because there is a situation of impoverishment and declining standards of living. Putting civilian society under military-style discipline (restricting their freedoms, extending work hours, rationing foodstuffs, instituting harsh penalties for disobedience at the workplace, etc.) is a way to avoid revolution.

This sort of Japan might have "freed" Vietnam and Indonesia from the European colonial rule (if the British and US let them...) but they would not be able to offer much that makes peoples' lives better. Even worse, the Japanese expectation that the newly freed nation should enter into exclusive trade agreements with Japan would lead to rather worse standards of living in the freed colonies as well. This in turn would lead to unrest and resentment against the Japanese rule.

Think about it: What does this Japan of alternate-1940, which is largely shut off from world trade due to its own economic problems as well as the collapse of world trade due to WW2, have to offer to Indonesia, in exchange for its oil? What sort of terms of trade will Japan impose on its clients? How do those terms of trade compare to what the colonies had with their former colonial masters?

This alternate-1940 Japan is not fighting a war in China, so it is comparably richer than it was in real-history-1940, and perhaps a little less fascist. It's still a rather autoritarian country with low living standards and not that much spare money to invest abroad.

And just across the Pacific, there are the USA, who are greedily eyeing east Asia themselves. Unlike Japan, the USA are a really rich country, and even only half-way out of the Great Depression the USA are still able to pour vastly more money into the liberated colonies of Asia, if only the governments of those countries let them.

There is going to be a competition between Japan, the Asian liberator with empty pockets, and the USA, the white liberator with very deep pockets. The Japanese offer a model of stern discipline and a credible Asia-for-Asians propaganda. The Americans offer money and trade, but they are a colonial power with a white, European face.

How is this going to play out? Would Japan even get an opening to enter the European colonies? After all, the Dutch and French governments-in-exile might fear the Japanese and petition the Americans or British to "look after" their colonies as a sort of lesser evil. How would the Japanese then get their opening? Through insurrection?
 
C

Calad

Guest
JodelDiplom makes an excelent alternative history suggestion. Why havent I thought this before?

First problems are that US would not likely look pleasantly if European colonial power is simply replaced by another. Churchill would very likely support Japan because he was imperialistic as hell and getting Japan against Germany and maybe later against Soviets would be very desired outcome for him.

Second problem is that Dutch Indonesia is not Iceland. Iceland has nothing worth of mentioning while Indonesia is one of richest areas in Asia like India. UK very likely would follow Dutch against Japanese in war. US as well.

Third problem is Japan itself. They simply had no unity of government to make any long term diplomacy or international agreements. All wars Japan started were started by local generals: Manchuria, China and French Indochina. All of these expansions were done by army faction and later navy faction, who was envious of armys power, negotiated strike on Pearl Harbour. Had Japanese had a some short civilian government and military not unleashed JodelDiplom scenario is plausible.
 

JodelDiplom

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Churchill might prefer seeing the non-British colonies in Japanese hands over seeing them in American hands, but he would probably most of all like to "take care" of Indonesia and Indochina himself. :D

I'm not quite sure what the British plans for Asia were, before the historical Japanese declaration of war, but I suppose they may have assisted the Dutch at least if an insurrection happened in Indonesia. If the Pacific is peaceful, the Raj ought to have a lot of spare manpower around to police those colonies, and perhaps the British would be willing to spare some transportation and fun the expedition if it helped an embattled co-belligerent power.

After Mers-El-Kebir the British-French relations were quite sour for a while, but even so, Britain might (from the French and Dutch p.o.v.) be the most desirable caretaker since, as a more or less saturated colonial power, they could be more or less trusted to return those colonies to them after the war is over.