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Lucas Fenix

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I keep the largest kingdom/kingdoms, medium ones I hand out to family members with nice traits (e.g. lots of greens like Kind, Humble, unlikely to go after my throne) and small ones I hand out to notable nobles who seem useful, e.g. Doge's, content, people my daughters are married to.

I know having many sons in a kingdom can be problematic due to the claims but if you make sure their traits are nice they should be quiet and obey.

As long as you can retain over a third of the landmass with good income you can easily dispatch any rebellions with troops, retinues and mercs.
 

MasterOfGrey

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1. Have lots of weak vassals (only counts and dukes)
2. Each person in your realm should control only one holding.
3. Have lots of money.

The problem with this is it's essentially very gamey. Plus, if you need to do this to keep your empire stable and under control you're doing something wrong.

Btw, how are you guys granting king-level titles to doge's? I've never been able to just grant it to them, and I doubt everyone is making those kingdoms elective, electing the doge as successor and waiting to die if they're an emperor....
 

unmerged(26764)

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Mar 14, 2004
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Here's what I do:

1. I don't create and hand out kingdom titles. I find it makes things no easier to handle, and it makes possible rebellions worse. More important to me, it makes vassal management worse. When some vassal adopts the wrong culture or inherits a county in a weird place, I might need to revoke something to fix my realm. If I have a king on top, I can't do that without revoking the king title first and making permanent enemies. This is annoying. Maybe I'm just OCD, but I don't want the vassal King of Sweden holding a duchy in the Levant because some duke married the duchess there.

I know a lot of people disagree. For me, I don't see any upside to vassal kings and a lot of downside. Plus the new patch means de jure vassal kings will want independence when dukes won't. Another reason to avoid them.

2. When you are a large empire -- what this post is about -- you MUST tax feudal vassals. I hate it, but you have no choice. You can't afford a 100k retinue on the revenue from your demense alone. Even with rich counties with all cities. Your demense doesn't grow all game, but your retinue does. Doges aren't enough, and given how revolt prone they are with the faction system I avoid them now too. The old advice here is now all wrong. If you're still making doges and not taxing feudal vassals in large empires, you probably need to adjust your gameplay with the new changes.
 

Isaios

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I feel vindicated with Valinn on my side, or being on Valinn's side, whatever :p

Have you tried using Bishops as a stabiliser instead of Doges? Considered doing it with a ERE game, but haven't had the time yet.
 

BurningEGO

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In big empires i only have issues with "independence" factions. I never hand out kingdom titles - its bad bussiness.

When independence factions eventually demand independence i simply grant it to them - i always have the kingdom titles and since my relations are always on the 80's and they are of the same culture as myself, i just offer diplomatic vassalizations and they will accept it without problem.

Its kinda like in CK1. There was no point fighting vassals if you had the appropriate king title. You simply white peaced them and re-vassalized them later diplomatically.

You can't afford a 100k retinue on the revenue from your demense alone

I have more than 200k and i got no problem with retinues or with my finances, and i am not taxing vassals. Income is about +60 per month - i only got issues when i am reinforcing them, but then again, when i use retinues for war, i always make sure my coffers are with a lot of cash.
 

MasterOfGrey

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I have more than 200k and i got no problem with retinues or with my finances, and i am not taxing vassals. Income is about +60 per month - i only got issues when i am reinforcing them, but then again, when i use retinues for war, i always make sure my coffers are with a lot of cash.

As much as I respect Valinn's opinion BurningEGO is right, this is essentially all you need to do. Make sure you have money in the bank at all times. Not exactly rocket science.
 

rapter200

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As Emperor of the reinstated Roman Empire for 6 generations (plus 1 generation as Byzantine Emperor) I have figured out a method for controlling large sprawling Empires that goes counter to what a lot of people are saying here. A lot of people are giving the advice of either keeping all the kingdom titles and just dealing with Douxes or keeping the largest kingdom titles and handing out the useless ones. I say do neither. Give out all of your kingdom titles. My Emperor never has a kingdom title to his name. He is the Emperor, he doesn't deal with the small politics of Kingdoms.

Currently my Roman Empire has 20 kingdoms under it and they are all managed beautifully by their kings and queens who all have very high opinions of me because of the next couple of reasons. I only ever keep two counties under my direct control, Rome and Constantinople. For symbolic reasons really. The Current seat of power of Rome and the former seat of power that is Constantinople should always be in the hands of the Emperor. I also always do my best to transfer doux level vassals and below to their correct Despot. This keeps the Despot happy. Also always make sure that your heir has a Kingdom title. You should always give your heir a kingdom and then when he inherits the Empire you should give that kingdom to his heir and so on. This makes the transition of power easier on the vassals. When deciding your Council get political.

My entire council is made up now for political reasons and nothing to do at all with merit anymore. Be liberal with your money when it comes to showering your despots with gifts and remember to have some left over for any impromptu assassination needs. Doing all this I have been able to keep the Roman Empire together without much problem. When a faction appears make the members happy. Most of the time that is easy to deal with because the only important players will be the despots. I also have low crown authority to allow for infighting which keep the vassals distracted and no feudal taxes. I make anywhere from 50 to 200 gold a month depending on the stewardship of my Emperor at the time. Most of that is spent on upkeep of the retinues which is expensive as hell but well worth it, and if I wanted to raise my vassal's levies I have 697,000 men at the call. Though I have never raised them all at once, I could only imagine the cost. Anyway that was my two cents on running a Large Empire, would love to do an aar of this game but I have no idea how to.
 
Last edited:

RaubritterAK

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As Emperor of the reinstated Roman Empire for 6 generations (plus 1 generation as Byzantine Emperor) I have figured out a method for controlling large sprawling Empires that goes counter to what a lot of people are saying here. A lot of people are giving the advice of either keeping all the kingdom titles and just dealing with Douxes or keeping the largest kingdom titles and handing out the useless ones. I say do neither. Give out all of your kingdom titles. My Emperor never has a kingdom title to his name. He is the Emperor, he doesn't deal with the small politics of Kingdoms.

Currently my Roman Empire has 20 kingdoms under it and they are all managed beautifully by their kings and queens who all have very high opinions of me because of the next couple of reasons. I only ever keep to counties under my direct control, Rome and Constantinople. For symbolic reasons really. The Current seat of power of Rome and the former seat of power that is Constantinople should always be in the hands of the Emperor. I also always do my best to transfer doux level vassals and below to their correct Despot. This keeps the Despot happy. Also always make sure that your heir has a Kingdom title. You should always give your heir a kingdom and then when he inherits the Empire you should give that kingdom to his heir and so on. This makes the transition of power easier on the vassals. When deciding your Council get political.

My entire council is made up now for political reasons and nothing to do at all with merit anymore. Be liberal with your money when it comes to showering your despots with gifts and remember to have some left over for any impromptu assassination needs. Doing all this I have been able to keep the Roman Empire together without much problem. When a faction appears make the members happy. Most of the time that is easy to deal with because the only important players will be the despots. I also have low crown authority to allow for infighting which keep the vassals distracted and no feudal taxes. I make anywhere from 50 to 200 gold a month depending on the stewardship of my Emperor at the time. Most of that is spent on upkeep of the retinues which is expensive as hell but well worth it, and if I wanted to raise my vassal's levies I have 697,000 men at the call. Though I have never raised them all at once, I could only imagine the cost. Anyway that was my two cents on running a Large Empire, would love to do an aar of this game but I have no idea how to.

This sounds like autopilot lol. I like this!
 

unmerged(445219)

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My entire council is made up now for political reasons and nothing to do at all with merit anymore. Be liberal with your money when it comes to showering your despots with gifts and remember to have some left over for any impromptu assassination needs. Doing all this I have been able to keep the Roman Empire together without much problem. When a faction appears make the members happy. Most of the time that is easy to deal with because the only important players will be the despots. I also have low crown authority to allow for infighting which keep the vassals distracted and no feudal taxes. I make anywhere from 50 to 200 gold a month depending on the stewardship of my Emperor at the time. Most of that is spent on upkeep of the retinues which is expensive as hell but well worth it, and if I wanted to raise my vassal's levies I have 697,000 men at the call. Though I have never raised them all at once, I could only imagine the cost. Anyway that was my two cents on running a Large Empire, would love to do an aar of this game but I have no idea how to.

The vassals will pay for the upkeep of their troops.
 

unmerged(26764)

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Mar 14, 2004
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As much as I respect Valinn's opinion BurningEGO is right, this is essentially all you need to do. Make sure you have money in the bank at all times. Not exactly rocket science.

Well, in the game I currently have running my retinue is only about 30k. Pikes and cav. When it's all reinforcing, it costs about 100 gold a month. Income without taxing vassals -- with 12 demense, all packed with cities -- is about 70 gold. Unless I save a big cushion, it quickly eats me into the negative.

Now, here's the thing. This is an early-mid game retinue. I ended up expanding much slower than usual due to a few random factors in how the game played out. So, I just took the ERE title and my retinue jumped to about double it's previous size. So, once I build it out, it's going to cost 200gold to reinforce. Which is consistent with other games. My demense income is obviously the same, about 70g.

I just don't see how to make use of a max retinue that costs 3 times monthly income without adding tax. And later 5 or 6 times. Sure, you could save money for wars to use it. But then you're just passing up on building other improvements, fabricating claims, bribing vassals, and all the other things you need to do while playing -- you're otherwise greatly slowing down your game and missing opportunities. You could also not use your retinue. But if you're not going to use it, why have it? Just don't waste money building it if it's just going to sit in the garage all game.

I'd love to be wrong. I really hate the extra vassal relations penalty. But my experience has been that taxing vassals is the only decent move once you become a largish empire. I wait as long as I can to impose tax, but once the retinue costs as much as my monthly income to reinforce I bite the bullet and do it. The choice at that point is to save too much money and miss opportunities, not use the retinue, or go deeply into debt every big war. Tax is the least bad option as I see it.
 

smeggy

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I'm currently finishing this Brittania campaign with 7 kings as vassals: Scots, English, Wales, Brittany, France, Galliacia (NW Spain), and the bastard of them all: Greece. Somehow a vassal of mine got Greece of some crusade, so I had to handle with it. I tried tearing down it's 34% power by creating dutchies, which a gave to the Greek kings vassals. It didnt worked at first, I got in total 3 independance wars, but in the end the dukes started to balance out in 4 internal greek powers, that gave the King something to worry about.

My point here is: return the favoir, let that rebellish vasal have a taste of their own medicine. Devide and rule.
 

rapter200

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The vassals will pay for the upkeep of their troops.

That is true, though I would love to see the total cost of the entire army if all the levies were raised.

This sounds like autopilot lol. I like this!

This is true and not true. The AI has really done somethings that have surprised me. The Kingdoms I have in the Middle East and the Crimea area have really started to expand on their own. They seem to have their own personality almost. The Kingdom of Syria has expanded into the rest of the Middle East leaving the Kingdom of Jerusalem without area to expand unless they want to confront the Syrians. The Timurids tried to take back lost land with a holy war, but I came to rescue with my retinues. I keep two personal retinues of 20000 men each (all heavy cavalry retinues). I don't really need any more then that and don't see a reason to have more when I can just call up the levies of my vassals if things ever get hairy. The kingdoms in the middle seem to concentrate on more personal Empire politics. The infighting of Wallachia, Bulgaira, Serbia, and Greece can be fun to watch. The Kingdoms of the West are much newer and are the ones who need the Emperor's guidance the most. Spain is where I base my personal legions as I expand into it. Imperial Reconquest is pretty awesome.

One thing I don't understand that you guys seem to do is maxing out your retinues. I don't do that. You don't really need to when you can combine vassal levies with the retinues you already have. The cost is just too much compared to the benefit it gives. Also currently in my game the year is 1553. I edited the game to allow play until 1999. I started the game as the Count of Constantia and didn't become Byzantine Emperor until the 1300's, so I had a lot of catching up to do when it came to fixing the empire.
 

unmerged(26764)

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One thing I don't understand that you guys seem to do is maxing out your retinues. I don't do that. You don't really need to when you can combine vassal levies with the retinues you already have. The cost is just too much compared to the benefit it gives. Also currently in my game the year is 1553. I edited the game to allow play until 1999. I started the game as the Count of Constantia and didn't become Byzantine Emperor until the 1300's, so I had a lot of catching up to do when it came to fixing the empire.

The best reason to do it is to stop factions from firing. That's based on a comparison between their max army size and yours. A bigger retinue means you need more faction members to rebel.
 

MasterOfGrey

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Perhaps Valinn I should ask what type of retinues you use? Since LoR I've played only in Brittania and Spain so I've mostly used the longbow, skirmish and heavy inf. retinues (spanish special retinues don't do it for me). I know I can comfortably have 20k of them and support them almost entirely off the tax from a rather average set of 6 provinces (In this example 20k supported off Wales alone). If you're using a purely Heavy Cav retinue from a different culture group I could see how that would be more expensive. But as having legions of those is a) unhistorical and b) designed to be hideously expensive, I'd have to wonder why they were being thrown into the fray as your primary force... I'm planning to play somewhere with a HC retinue next game but I don't plan to use the HC as my main force entirely because of the expense.

Also, I found if you minimise city taxes really early on the cities will develop ahead of their time compared to your own holdings and retinues. Usually they'll have built everything they can build except the university by around 1180. At this point their income is so high that low tax covers a lot of things, and if you can put it up to normal again after that it's a huge boost.
 

Myrten

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I think you really underestimate money-making potential of Grand Republics on Harsh Taxes, around 10 of them in Greece\Asia Minor is more then enough to support retinues for my entire Roman Empire up to Scotland. I don't tax clergy and feudal vassals at all.
 

unmerged(26764)

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Perhaps Valinn I should ask what type of retinues you use?

Since retinues were created, I've really only extensively played two big campaigns. One in Russia. One in Italy / ERE. The Russian retinues were Russian heavy inf with a mixed cav filler. The Italians were Italian pikes with a mixed cav filler.

I'm not sure why I'm finding these so much more expensive than you. The 30K I mentioned were one group of 15k Italian cultural pikes and 5k mixed cav, and another group of maybe 6k Italian cultural pikes. That cost over 100 gold a month to reinforce. My demense was I think 12 or 13 counties. All coastal in Italy (Sicily and Rome down to Taranto). All with maximum cities. And a king with stewardship of about 18, with a high stewardship wife. (I gun for good stewardship / diplo combination). That earned about 70 gold per month.

I'm not sure composition matters that much. The more expensive retinues take more headcount per unit, so I think it ought to balance out. Maybe the 20k longbows are much "cheaper" per head than the pikes and heavy inf. I can't recall the retinue limit, but this might be much higher if the longbows are very cheap per head. So it may be that my retinue is about the same number of men, but actually much "larger" in retinue points.
 

unmerged(26764)

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I think you really underestimate money-making potential of Grand Republics on Harsh Taxes, around 10 of them in Greece\Asia Minor is more then enough to support retinues for my entire Roman Empire up to Scotland. I don't tax clergy and feudal vassals at all.

I used to really spam doges before factions were introduced. They are amazing money generators. I don't use them at all right now, but maybe I'm too shy about this. I am concerned about how rebellious they are. I didn't used to mind because they're so easy to put down in a one-off revolt -- cities are easy to assault. But now that they can revolt and bring in an alien paratrooper 100k no-attrition doomstack, I avoid them. I don't want anyone who might revolt, not because I can't take them down but because I don't want to deal with the free doomstack.

The other problem with republics is they're only useful in same-culture areas. The mayors usually take on the culture of the county they're in. In big empires, this often means your base area only. Later, once culture spreads, you can revoke and make more. But by then, I usually have other targets for revoking that are more important.
 

BurningEGO

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Well i always use the 400 heavy inf + 100 bows retinue, and i have absolutely no problem with money, and i am constantly at war. Late wars are not about assaulting, its more about sieging and a couple of pitched battles. Just stay on the coast if you can, and use your vassals' regiments for the real big fights. Use your retinues with moderation.
 

unmerged(26764)

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Well i always use the 400 heavy inf + 100 bows retinue, and i have absolutely no problem with money, and i am constantly at war. Late wars are not about assaulting, its more about sieging and a couple of pitched battles. Just stay on the coast if you can, and use your vassals' regiments for the real big fights. Use your retinues with moderation.

How big a realm? How many retinue units? How much tax income?

I'm genuinely curious whether this is an issue of size or something else. Is your realm and retinue "small" -- the size of one normal kingdom? In which case your experience and mine is the same. Or is this with a large empire -- 4 kingdoms or more? If this is so, I want to know why my experience and yours is different. What are the hard numbers? How many retinue units, what do they cost, and how much tax are you making without taxing vassals?