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Lt. General
Jul 12, 2001
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In another thread, BrianNewbie mentioned Empire in Arms, an Avalon Hill wargame. I was so surprised someone else knows this game! Any other warmongers here know about EIA?

Being relatively new to EU, I would have to conclude that the developers of EU were inspired by this boardgame. It's too much similarities to be a coincidence.

That was the boardgame that is THE single closest thing to EU. :) The only exception is that Empire in Arms was strictly limited to the European theatre.

From (parts of) Scandinavia in the north down to Turkey and North Africa in the south, from England in the west to the Ukraine in the east, but nothing else beyond those borders.

What an awesome game it was. I still have a boxed copy too, and the huge game map (that you play on) is sooooo gorgeous. I still love staring at that map of Europe, each city has its "seige rating", etc.

Oh yes, my favorite nation to play in EIA was Spain...prolly because I enjoyed being slapped silly by an incredibly invincible French player who had legendary commanders like Napoleon, Ney and Davout. The English had it good too, they got awesome commanders like the Duke of Wellington and of course Admiral Nelson.

What I never understood is WHY all the Russian generals had non-Slavic names like Bennigson, Witingstein, Barclay and Bagration. They had one commander who was Kutusov Prince of Smolensk, however.

The Ottomans in EIA were a lot like the EU Turks. One main difference: in the Napoleonic era of EIA, the Turks had access to an almost unlimited supply of cheap cavalry (in addition to cheap infantry), called "feudal cavalry".

In EIA, the Spain player had very realistic victory conditions. If you were alive at the end of the game (unconquered), you basically won.

One quick look back at EIA, and I have to conclude that the guys who created EU most definitely have played this game. I'd like to be corrected if I'm wrong.
 

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Bylandt
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Ha, Empires in arms. So many good memories! I think I have played every nation, except Prussia.

About the Russian officers: Russia liked to recruit from expert foreign officers. Barclay de Tolly was Scottish. A lot of the officers were "émigrés": mostly French nobles and officers who had fled the Revolution and patriotic Germans who loathed Napoleon.
 

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Lt. General
Jul 12, 2001
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Ahhh that explains it. Now it makes sense, the Russian army must have hired a bunch of foreigners to lead their troops.

One thing I miss from EIA, which I see could easily be an "event" or option for EU (in IGC at least) would be to allow the Russian players to have cheaply available Cossack armies.

Let me see if I can still remember this... the so called militia units were:

Russians got Cossacks (in addition to standing armies)

Prussians got Landwehr (in addition to standing armies)

Turkey got "feudal troops" (in addition to regular Jannisary armies)

Yes, EIA brings back good memories. I only ever played Spain and Austria. Both were easy to play because the goals were easy: survive an onslaught from Napoleon.
 

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Yes Empires in Arms was a great game, and EU is/seems heavily influenced by it. Combat was even more frustrating in it, one lousy die roll and bye bye army! Oh well just ask Napoleon about bad luck.

E.I.A. was originally by Australian Design Group company, which also makes World in Flames (the computer version of which, incidentally, is in beta tests) and is just about to release a detailed 'civilisation' type boardgame.

http://www.a-d-g.com.au/home.htm (if you care)
 

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Jun 28, 2001
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Of course Poland-Lith starts with the Cossacks (and have the cheaper cavalry)

Yes im an old Avalon Hill'er. Panzer Blitz/Leader, Third Reich, Diplomacy, IDF, the Fleet series (Sixth, Second, Fifth, etc), various others.

Of course with the advent of online gaming, I dont play those as much anymore. But me and my friends still get away some weekends for a beer & pertzels holiday with an Avalon Hill game. Lots of fun.
 

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Lt. General
Jul 12, 2001
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Originally posted by GNGSpam
Of course Poland-Lith starts with the Cossacks (and have the cheaper cavalry)

Yes im an old Avalon Hill'er. Panzer Blitz/Leader, Third Reich, Diplomacy, IDF, the Fleet series (Sixth, Second, Fifth, etc), various others.

Of course with the advent of online gaming, I dont play those as much anymore. But me and my friends still get away some weekends for a beer & pertzels holiday with an Avalon Hill game. Lots of fun.

Third Reich was probably one of the best "grand strategy" games ever made. The game was so excellenty designed. Of course, a game of 3R was only good and fun if your friends (fellow allies and opponents) were good challengers.

I normally played Germany and I once paired up with a friend who played a superb Italian player, my Italian ally ended up turning the Mediterranean into a Roman Lake. He grabbed Alexandria from the British, and he did the unthinkable, he conquered Greece and Yugoslavia without help from my German troops!

Unfortunately, I doubt I can recommend the computerized versions of these same boardgames. The computerized versions are boring as hell. Only the original boardgame, where you played socially against friends, were true classics.
 

Agelastus

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Ah-a Third-Reicher. I'll try not to praise World in Flames then.

Which if they ever come up with a decent AI should be quite good fun on a computer. The open beta version shows promise.
 

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Yes, the real benefit of these games is being drunk around 1944 in the game, 3 am in real life, so that you all get brilliant ideas like

British Player "heeeeyyyyyy americads, letsn invades r Spains! THeys have goodi burrtiots!"

American Player "nooooowjw! thats tuekey! you knows, turkeyr buritio!"

And so began the great Anglo-Turkish war of 1944
 

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Lt. General
Jul 12, 2001
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Originally posted by Agelastus
Ah-a Third-Reicher. I'll try not to praise World in Flames then.

Which if they ever come up with a decent AI should be quite good fun on a computer. The open beta version shows promise.

I played both. I liked both. :)

I viewed World in Flames as basically "Third Reich in both European and Pacific theatres".

Sometimes it can be fun to play as the Chinese Nationalist army...or to be able to play Imperial Japan, for that matter.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Australia a separate playable country in the Pacific theatre of world in flames?
 

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Originally posted by Suleyman
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Australia a separate playable country in the Pacific theatre of world in flames?

No-but the Commonwealth has six home countries, technically, Australia is one of them.

World in Flames biggest problem is the eternally modifying "official rules". If they say "Final Edition" don't believe them

http://marinacci.com/Chris/index.html

If you want to try the World in Flames beta test version.
 

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We used to do freelance rules with Third Reich. We would get rid of all the pre-arranged wars and alliances, and just let people play (i guess an you could say an EU style game). Of course we'd have to make certain changes, weaken Germany's recruiting pool some, strengthen France and Italies recruit pool. Sometimes we'd have people play Spain or Turkey, once even had a Polish player, so wed have to strengthen them and make cards for them.

Anyways it was lots of fun, because the "game engine" had no limits. Something wasnt covered? We made it up! Units not included? Get some cardboard and a pen! It was great. We could make any diplomatic agreement, from trading a Heiniken for sphere of influence rights over Hungary, to all kinds of loans structured anyway.

Thats why board games will always reign supreme over the multiplaying arena. Total customization.
 
Mar 19, 2001
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About Russian generals in Napoleonic Wars

You should read Tolstoi's "WAR AND PEACE" (a must read being universally regarded as the best novel of all times). He quite accurately portrays those generals. Very interesting charcter studies.

But the Russian author greatly dislikes those German guys and braggs about us stupid unhumorous Germans throughout the book (he has a point though, I admit). Kutzov, Bagration, the lot...

Have you read it? Weren't the battle scenes masterpieces of world literature: Prince Andrei at Austerlitz, Pierre at (was it?) Borodino!

This is most certainly THE book after the bible and "LORD OF THE RINGS" that people must simply read. You'll go back on it throuout your life!

WHat do you say to the portrayal of Kutuzov? I found Tolstoi's description of the old man's outlook on life and historical viewings quite extraordinary.
 

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I never actually played any of these grand strategy board games, but I always thought they looked extremely cool. So, are there any of these games around you would recommend to a newbie? I mostly play computerized strategy/civilization-type/city building games, anything from Civ II to (of course) EU. I am also curious to know if the original EU boardgame is as good or perhaps even better than the CG. If you've played it, please give me a piece of your mind.

THIS IS SUCH A GREAT FORUM, BTW!
 

Agelastus

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Well, for WWII I can recommend WiFFE Deluxe edition. ("World in Flames, Final Edition".) Quite dear, though, with many contentious aspects to the system. However, other games in the "series"/system allow you to try and pull off an Axis invasion of the Americas, or a post WWII War wtih the Soviet Union ("Patton's Dream").

Others would reccommend Advanced Third Reich-never played it, unfortunately, but my original choice of WiF was based on what you could see from the packaging, and it didn't look as interesting-besides the fact you needed to buy a separate game if you wanted to include the Pacific War in your game.

The real question of course is what level of complexity you want-how dedicated are you?
 

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Lt. General
Jul 12, 2001
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Originally posted by Agelastus
Well, for WWII I can recommend WiFFE Deluxe edition. ("World in Flames, Final Edition".) Quite dear, though, with many contentious aspects to the system. However, other games in the "series"/system allow you to try and pull off an Axis invasion of the Americas, or a post WWII War wtih the Soviet Union ("Patton's Dream").

Or how about the Japanese invasion and conquest of California?

Most of these wargames are revisionist history. They allow the possibility that Hitler could have won the war, or Tojo could have invaded the West Coast.

I will keep my eye out on the release of this WiF computer game. Sounds good to me! And if the multiplayer aspect is good....drool! :D
 

Agelastus

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Go look at the info on the website, Suleyman. It's been altered slightly by the recent Annual they released, but it's only really going to be playable multiplayer initially for a fairly unusual reason. Ah, just go to the site, the link's already in a post above.

Download the Beta and have a look.
 

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Second Lieutenant
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Fellow board gamers,

At last, somebody that can direct to the beta version of WiF. Finding this program has been quite the task let me tell you. Funny how EU'ers tend to have similar tastes. I've played both WiF and TR and found WiF much more enjoyable. Just my opinion.

sahir
 
Mar 19, 2001
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World in Flames/Third Reich

Ah! It's good to see others liking/loving this grand strategy boardgame. Besides, so-called "EU"-style games are really historical grand strategy games, my favorite genre!

I must say that WIF FE is a very polished game. The rules have improved a great deal over previous editions and the map and counters are IMHO unrivaled by any other wargame! Oh I drooled over that map for ages once I got it!

I cannot compare it to Third Reich, not having played it. I have heard somewhere that diehard Third Reichers criticized WIF as historically incorrect. I cannot agree. The viable WIF strategies were all historically viable. The sequence of Axis blitzes follows quite the pattern of history (normally). I love the pressure on Japan about US entry/Pearl harbour.

The economic system is great. I think having it in a war game makes it far more interesting. That is also one reason why I dislike operational/tactical games. I want the whole picture!

Further, WIF is very playable provided you manage to get the time and players to go with it. THE problem! Anybody living in Berlin or Bavaria wanting to play? (Write to charlesf@web.de)

Further, I simply love the graphics. Some of you wargamers might scoff about this point (especially you TR fans). It gives the game the right atmosphere. To be honest, I've held that Third Reich box several times in my hands and was about to buy it, but those graphics put me off (besides already having payed for two editions of WIF and disliking AH rules).

BTW, the Sixth Edition rules are very well presented. I wish other publishers would also have this standard of excellence.

Also I like playing both the European and Pacific theatre (for TR you need that RISING SUN (I think) addition)

Well, having said all that, I believe TR is a very good game. No doubt! (I'd go for it if I had a partner to play with). But it's a shame that it's an Avalon Hill product - a company that had been dead a long time before it was bought up by Hasbro. Had the game received the same attention of its developers and been improved over time as WIF, it would attract far more attention, I'd say.

But what really interests me, is what strategies are viable in TR? WHat about the sub-war? WHen should one attac Russia? How's production organized? How's US entry handled? What's included in TR that WIF doesn't have?

I'd be glad about some feedback!

COMPUTER WORLD IN FLAMES:

Now, I've been waiting for this for a VERY LONG !!!!! time. The beta looks promising. It's however a shame that ADG didn't get a software house to help in the development. Years ago I believe to have read an interview in a wargame magazine that some company had shown interest, but ADG wasn't accepting the terms! Marinacci is certainly doing a good job, but it's a part-time effort and that puts some limits to game design. Also I have a big criticism about ADG. There is no info on their site about release dates. THey haven't updated theirr site for ages. I consider their site to be completely unsatisfactory. Why don't they post old versions of "Line of Communication on the site?", Where's some support for players? That mailing list is completely unsatisfactory! Why don't they from a proper forum? WIF deserves better!!!

Please, should you know more about release dates, we'd all be happy to know! Then we could have great multiplayer games running as realistically we're unlikely to get many chances to play FTF anymore.