Emperor can't upgrade to kingdom or empire

[rizla7]

Your ruler is Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire but only Archduke of Austria, it's not that odd.

except archduchy was basically a kingdom as far as i understand, it's a collection of duchies, which would be analogous to a kingdom.

and also, in my game, i have annexed 50 such 'duchies', which would make me a kingdom... but apparently, that option isn't available... well, bcs... you're not elector... it apparently does not matter that you've incorporated countless dukedoms into your - what is now... empire?

 

[ChildeR]

except archduchy was basically a kingdom as far as i understand, it's a collection of duchies, which would be analogous to a kingdom.

and also, in my game, i have annexed 50 such 'duchies', which would make me a kingdom... but apparently, that option isn't available... well, bcs... you're not elector... it apparently does not matter that you've incorporated countless dukedoms into your - what is now... empire?

There were historically plenty of realms that were very large, yet still only considered duchies or very small but considered kingdoms. For example, Lithuania (a grand duchy) vs. Cyprus or Sardinia (kingdoms).

I don't see anything wrong with that. In fact I think the button to upgrade rank is a bit boring, but whatever.

 

[rizla7]

There were historically plenty of realms that were very large, yet still only considered duchies or very small but considered kingdoms.

'considered' isn't the proper term. there's a very clear delineation here. a duchy is ruled by a duke, who controls a local piece of land, which they traditionally owned by inheritance.

to depose all dukes that you've incorporated into your kingdom would be political suicide... all because you're not an elector? that just wouldn't fly with the political elites...

it should be the other way around: once you become a kingdom, you instantly become an elector... since you wield considerable power in the empire.

and i believe that is essentially the way austrian succession should be interpreted, not the other way around.

the truth is; austria was already a kingdom, or pseudo-kingdom (archduchy) before succession...

anyways, interpreting the problem through the lens of a single country is a fallacy to begin with.

 

[zamieo]

There were historically plenty of realms that were very large, yet still only considered duchies or very small but considered kingdoms. For example, Lithuania (a grand duchy) vs. Cyprus or Sardinia (kingdoms).

I don't see anything wrong with that. In fact I think the button to upgrade rank is a bit boring, but whatever.

I'm fairly certain that Lithuania, while still a Grand Duchy, is Kingdom ranked in EU4. Muscovy as well (forming the Tsardom of Russia shouldn't make Musocvy/Russia Emperor level, it should make them king level, it was only during Peter the Great's time that Russia declared itself an Empire and was deemed on the same level as Austria internationally, and even then, plenty of states withheld their confirmation of that title due to their respect of Austria, as HRE). Which in that case doesn't really make sense as Austria, as an Archduchy, should be at the same rank as a Grand Duchy.

 

[ChildeR]

'considered' isn't the proper term. there's a very clear delineation here. a duchy is ruled by a duke, who controls a local piece of land, which they traditionally owned by inheritance.
[...]
it should be the other way around: once you become a kingdom,

If you believe in the "clear delineation", how do you "become a kingdom"?

In game answer: you take a nation formation decision and leave the HRE.

 

[ChildeR]

I'm fairly certain that Lithuania, while still a Grand Duchy, is Kingdom ranked in EU4.

Nope: it's duchy rank. One of the easier choices for "grand duchy" (the achievement) – along with Austria, of course.

 

[rizla7]

If you believe in the "clear delineation", how do you "become a kingdom"?

In game answer: you take a nation formation decision and leave the HRE.

yes, we know that already... that isn't the issue here... also, please tell bohemia and all electors to leave hre in that case, thanks. i'd appreciate it.

 

[Pornek]

Who cares about the Kingdom/Empire benefits, when you have the vassal swarm.

 

[ChildeR]

yes, we know that already... that isn't the issue here...

I think you are missing my point, so I should state it more clearly.

The way you form a kingdom in-game is perhaps easier than historically, but it still has some requirements. Namely: a bunch of land and independence. It is the latter that you lack if you are a part of the HRE. The elector allowance is an exception (that arguably shouldn't exist) as a nod to Bohemia (which didn't form a kingdom in the HRE but was at least initially a sort-of-outsider that held an electorate).

 

[zamieo]

Nope: it's duchy rank. One of the easier choices for "grand duchy" (the achievement) – along with Austria, of course.

Okay, then I stand corrected. But I'm still right regarding Muscovy, although they're technically called a Grand Principality (and many of the other Russian states).

 

[ChildeR]

But I'm still right regarding Muscovy, although they're technically called a Grand Principality (and many of the other Russian states).

Yes, and I agree with what you wrote before regarding them.

 

[rizla7]

Namely: a bunch of land and independence. It is the latter that you lack if you are a part of the HRE.

not if you want to form the HRE, and the jump from duchy straight to empire makes that even more bizarre... it's just an orwellian world.

regarding Muscovy, although they're technically called a Grand Principality (and many of the other Russian states).

yea, bcs grand duchy is more like kingdom. it's not a duchy; it's a collection of duchies, and kingdoms were just a collection of any such medieval states, whatever you care to call them: a bunch of useless nobles ruled by a single useless noble.

 

[ChildeR]

not if you want to form the HRE, and the jump from duchy straight to empire makes that even more bizarre...

If you form the HRE then you clearly are independent and a true empire like any other. I don't understand your objection at all.

 

[rizla7]

If you form the HRE then you clearly are independent and a true empire like any other. I don't understand your objection at all.

and until you form the HRE... you are a duke?...

since when did a duchy form an empire? - archduchy yes, which is a collection of duchies, not ruled by a duke, but by an archduke, which is more similar to king in status.

you simply can't form an empire without the political infrastructure in place.

basically, the answer we've been given is - stay in the HRE and stay small, and pretend like you a duchy (role-play)... nobody will notice that you ate half the planet.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/HRR_1400.png

there you have the konigreich danemark (kingdom of denmark)... which i now own as holland, yet i'm not a kingdom... why is that? did i depose all the local dukes? that sounds like nonsense...

 

[ChildeR]

since when did a duchy form an empire?

Meh, there was no steady progression through the ranks. Sovereigns of various ranks formed kingdoms and empires when they felt like it, occasionally with some success.

But if you want examples from history, Muscovy went from grand duke/prince to calling themselves tsar which arguably amounted to an empire (but see zamieo's post). The Empire of Trebizond was also basically the equivalent of a duchy until declaring itself an empire.

archduchy yes, which is a collection of duchies, not ruled by a duke, but by an archduke, which is more similar to king in status.

Archduchy was an Austrian invention. You can't generalize anything about it.

 

[rizla7]

Muscovy went from grand duke/prince to calling themselves tsar which arguably amounted to an empire (but see zamieo's post)..

but grand duke is basically archduke ;o it's not an invention of anyone's... it's a collection of dukes/dukedoms (duchies).

even grand duke was sometimes just called 'lord/master' (usually of a household) as in the slavic/ukrainian 'hospod/hospodar/gospodin'... which is also the root of words like 'gospoda/gospodarz/gospodarnosc' meaning 'hospitality' in polish and other languages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospodar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospod

polish people don't call them duke, they call them 'warlords' (wojewod), and provinces are called 'wojewodztwa', actually it's more like 'leader of warriors' : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voivode (bit of a joke there, but true story) stemming from the root 'wojennik' meaning 'warrior', and 'wojna' meaning 'war', and a shortening of the word 'dowodca/dowodztwo' meaning 'leader/leadership'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voivodeships_of_Poland

interestingly enough, the german 'herzog' means practically the same thing...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzog

 

[Falc]

and until you form the HRE... you are a duke?...

since when did a duchy form an empire? - archduchy yes, which is a collection of duchies, not ruled by a duke, but by an archduke, which is more similar to king in status.

you simply can't form an empire without the political infrastructure in place.

basically, the answer we've been given is - stay in the HRE and stay small, and pretend like you a duchy (role-play)... nobody will notice that you ate half the planet.

If you are the Holy Roman Emperor, then you are an Emperor.
You are also quite likely to be, at the same time, King of the Romans(Gerrmans) and King of Italy.

Completely independent of that, you might be ruler of Austria, which is likely to be a Duchy.


The fact is, if you try to upgrade your own lands, you are clearly trying to put your own good above that of the Empire and getting kicked out should not be a surprise.

 

[ChildeR]

but grand duke is basically archduke ;o it's not an invention of anyone's... it's a collection of dukes/dukedoms (duchies).

Not necessarily. E.g. the grand duchy of Tuscany consisted of the former duchy of Florence and some smaller fiefs, none of which used to be duchies (that I know of).

They are all just names and necessarily someone's invention. The nominal hierarchy was certainly important diplomatically, but it could all be bent out of shape when someone was powerful enough or had a friendly Pope/other giving them a leg up.

 

[rizla7]

Not necessarily. E.g. the grand duchy of Tuscany consisted of the former duchy of Florence and some smaller fiefs, none of which used to be duchies (that I know of).

right, as i stated in a previous post, it is a collection of various such principalities, not just duchies (but used for simplification). anyways, the concept is identical, and grand/archduchies are basically pseudo-kingdoms, and if they grew any larger (which they necessarily must do to protect the empire, and not putting their own good above it), they would necessarily need to become full kingdoms. pretending they aren't is like living in some fantasy world where only electors can incorporate multiple principalities to become kingdoms.

inb4; it can already be done in one of several ways:

- start as an elector or bohemia (easy button)
- start as austria and make use of RM/PU missions (likewise, scripted)
- pray to RNGesus for elector position (you better have some serious hacking skills)
- pray to RNGesus for elector PU (200+ years here, not a single same dynasty, no chance of PU)
- leave the HRE (contrary to aims)

this simply limits choices to certain states, or RNGesus mechanics... which really aren't the most solid game design. especially since it isn't clear/stated otherwise.

everyone else i've seen post about this uses the 'RNGesus PU an elector' method, which occurs in 1 out of several games maybe... if you're lucky...

 

[Sandmann]

So when I switch to protestant before league wars, I can upgrade to kingdom/empire, win league war and be emperor again?