Embracing Institutions Is Broken - Will it be patched on 09/13/2022

[SonofWinter]

I have brought this up before, about a year ago and I thought someone would fix it, I was clearly wrong...

Is this ever going to be fixed? (It is 1505, the Colonialism institution does not exist. I can't embrace it or spawn it, as I am playing Poland and I am not a colonial nation.) Castile and Aragon exist, no major upheavals in the world at large, other than my spread into the East.

I am taking a 15% tech penalty for not embracing the institution in 1505, that doesn't exist in 1505. And 12 years from now, I am going to take a 30% tech penalty if the institution doesn't spawn by then. So, what are the devs doing about this? Why is there a penalty for not doing something, that is impossible to do?

 

[ArtFart]

I think this is intentional. The game tries to stop you from technologically advancing without the proper insitutions, even if they haven't spawned. It's semi-realistic. Say if the Renaissance never happened, technological advancements in Europe would be signficantly slower, this mechanic is supposed to address that. It looks like something has interuppted the spawn of colonialism in your game. IRL this means that no country see's any need for signficant tech advancements, but as soon as they hear word of a "New World" they decide to speed up etc. So here the game is simulating that, no European country knows of the existance of the New World yet, as such no country needs to tech up signficantly etc.

 

[grommile]

Castile and Aragon exist

Aragon existing, if it's independent, is a potential problem factor here.

Does Portugal exist?

 

[LazySiege]

1505 isnt so late, you could just play on, or if you want to know more.
Load a copy of the safes and switch to all the usual colonizers and look what they need to spawn it (Castile, Portugal, Norway, Englan, Scotland).

 

[FocusedHope]

So, Colonialism in particular seems to have a low chance to spawn per year even among provinces that can spawn it; 1505 isn't that late for slightly unlucky RNG. And this is just a natural consequence of the institution spawn mechanics and low per-province chance; idk if the devs specifically intended Colonialism to often spawn 3-10 years "late", but I don't think this is in any sense a bug.

Other than that, what ArtFart said. "Tech level N is more expensive without institution X, even if institution X hasn't been discovered yet" is more realistic (from the underlying cause of "the understanding of this institution makes it easier to discover this tech") than "all techs are more expensive per year an unembraced institution is out" (um, why does a bunch of Italians reading books from Constantinople make it harder for NA native nations to understand pike squares?).

 

[SonofWinter]

Aragon existing, if it's independent, is a potential problem factor here.

Does Portugal exist?

I believe all 3 exist, Colonialism finally popped in 1508. Not sure what to make of it...

 

[SonofWinter]

1505 isnt so late, you could just play on, or if you want to know more.
Load a copy of the safes and switch to all the usual colonizers and look what they need to spawn it (Castile, Portugal, Norway, Englan, Scotland).

Not an option as it is an Ironman game but thank you I think the suggestion would work otherwise.

 

[henriqueb1]

I believe all 3 exist, Colonialism finally popped in 1508. Not sure what to make of it...

That's intentional for sure. As ArtFart explained.

The railroading/randomizing balance is very important in PDX map games, less railroading (like colonialism not always spawning in 1500) is meant to add to replayability.

For example HOI4 is a much more railroaded experience.

 

[SonofWinter]

That's intentional for sure. As ArtFart explained.

The railroading/randomizing balance is very important in PDX map games, less railroading (like colonialism not always spawning in 1500) is meant to add to replayability.

For example HOI4 is a much more railroaded experience.

It popped in 1508, I had to spend a boat load of resources to get my capital to level 40 and have it come up. Now, I'm the first power in the world to have it, as even though England spawned it, they can't get it done.

P.S. As for Portugal, I guess it is owned by Aragon.

 

[henriqueb1]

It popped in 1508, I had to spend a boat load of resources to get my capital to level 40 and have it come up. Now, I'm the first power in the world to have it, as even though England spawned it, they can't get it done.

P.S. As for Portugal, I guess it is owned by Aragon.

You would have had to spend the same amount had it spawned sooner. It's expensive, yeah.

 

[SonofWinter]

You would have had to spend the same amount had it spawned sooner. It's expensive, yeah.

Yes but I could have saved myself the 15% malus for the 3sets of technologies. So while you are correct to a certain degree, 15% of 600 x 3 is 270 mana points I wouldn't have spent 10 years earlier.

 

[zincpl]

you can hold off getting techs - particularly admin and diplo - I usually keep a level behind in them around the institution spawn time until I can grab it.

 

[Danskjävel]

I don't see the problem except from the 15% malus not being more progressively distributed and thus not very immersive nor very realistic.

Also we need to keep in mind that the institutions are summations of periods and notions that are also summations of broader societal phenomena. It's going to be arbitrary no matter what, the idea is to negate arbitrariness while creating fun gameplay.

 

[annulen]

Why is there a penalty for not doing something, that is impossible to do?

Even if you cannot (or choose not to) try spawning Colonialism yourself, your options are not strictly limited to idle waiting. You can subsidize some colonizer so they become more active. If you are concerned about helping your (potential) enemies, you can vassalize them first. Another option is to discover colonial nations that have already formed in New World and subsidize them directly - note that 1.33 has an AI budgeting bug (which is said to be fixed in 1.34 but we'll have to see it yet) that prevents CNs from colonizing lands themselves if they are not receiving very large subsidies at least for a few months.

 

[SonofWinter]

you can hold off getting techs - particularly admin and diplo - I usually keep a level behind in them around the institution spawn time until I can grab it.

And as you hold of you Innovativeness gets flushed down the drain. So yes, YOU can hold off, I however can't.

 

[annulen]

And as you hold of you Innovativeness gets flushed down the drain.

It can only happen when neighbor is ahead of you in technology, and they pay the same institution penalty in this case.

 

[zincpl]

And as you hold of you Innovativeness gets flushed down the drain. So yes, YOU can hold off, I however can't.

Like I implied, I pay the extra for mil but usually not for admin or diplo, there's no loss of innovativeness.

 

[Jespoke]

In the end, just paying the 15% extra in certain situations is just the right play. I usually take the 10-15% on at least one, usually all 3, when every institution after the first spawns, while i give the institution i deved time to spread.
You are only paying extra because you are at the forefront of tech already, that has the benefits to be worth it.

 

[Ramidel]

If I took a 100% penalty to get Military 7 in 1482, you wouldn't think it was overpriced at all after watching me utterly trash a much bigger neighbor. This is no different. Wait for the institution, or rush a bit and leverage a higher tech to your advantage.

 

[st360]

I believe all 3 exist, Colonialism finally popped in 1508. Not sure what to make of it...

Oh my god. 8 years. Thats almost one technology. Europe is basically Australian tribes in your game.