"Embrace English culture" should maybe happen later

[apollo1989vieten]

One thing that I would like to change, though I am probably in the small minority in advocating this, is the removal of certain traditions from 867 Anglo-Saxon and English, with the option to add these traditions back in via decision.

Housecarls were not a part of Anglo Saxon armies until Cnut brought them over. Alfred the Great and his successors used a peasant levy with a professional core in order to conquer England. If the Anglo Saxons control some duchies of Norse culture, the tradition could be added back in. If a Norse character conquers all of Anglo Saxon lands, the tradition would be added.

Longbows as part of English tradition didn't happen until some Norman lords decided that they like Welsh longbows. It took a while for longbows be to become apart of English culture. Richard the Lionheart exclusively used crossbows in his campaigns for his archery troops.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

In a lot of cases like this it wouldn't take decisions since we've already got the "reform" and "hybridise" options in cultures.

I'd say that an Anglo-Saxon country conquered by a Norse character is more likely to hybridise (Anglo-Norse? Aenglish?) than for Anglo-Saxon to gain the housecarls.

Huscarls are a bit of an odd one, as "a professional core" could reflect that sort of unit, and of course from 867 they could again hybridise with the Norse if they have some appropriate counties to get the tradition.


Longbows could be a simple reform of the culture when the cultural leader feels inspired enough to do so.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

In a lot of cases like this it wouldn't take decisions since we've already got the "reform" and "hybridise" options in cultures.

I'd say that an Anglo-Saxon country conquered by a Norse character is more likely to hybridise (Anglo-Norse? Aenglish?) than for Anglo-Saxon to gain the housecarls.

Huscarls are a bit of an odd one, as "a professional core" could reflect that sort of unit, and of course from 867 they could again hybridise with the Norse if they have some appropriate counties to get the tradition.


Longbows could be a simple reform of the culture when the cultural leader feels inspired enough to do so.

My ideas would be more for the base game. People who don't have Royal Court can't hybridize or reform cultures.

The traditional idea of the Housecarl, which is reflected by the in game image of the housecarl unit and the Bayeux Tapestry, is of a heavy infantry unit wielding a two handed ax, known as a dane-ax. The professional core of Anglo Saxon kings prior to the conquest of Cnut would not reflect this.

 

[vyshan]

One thing that I would like to change, though I am probably in the small minority in advocating this, is the removal of certain traditions from 867 Anglo-Saxon and English, with the option to add these traditions back in via decision.

Housecarls were not a part of Anglo Saxon armies until Cnut brought them over. Alfred the Great and his successors used a peasant levy with a professional core in order to conquer England. If the Anglo Saxons control some duchies of Norse culture, the tradition could be added back in. If a Norse character conquers all of Anglo Saxon lands, the tradition would be added.

Longbows as part of English tradition didn't happen until some Norman lords decided that they like Welsh longbows. It took a while for longbows be to become apart of English culture. Richard the Lionheart exclusively used crossbows in his campaigns for his archery troops.

what traditions should they have then?

 

[apollo1989vieten]

what traditions should they have then?

Not sure. That is why I said my position was a small minority. For 867 Anglo Saxons, for every city level in the county, the wall level maybe should increase by one. I would replace hirds with a tradition based on shield wall.

If the form English culture date was pushed back, it might be ok to leave the longbow tradition in. Another possibility would be to have a heavy cavalry tradition that would swap out for longbow tradition if conditions are met.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

My ideas would be more for the base game. People who don't have Royal Court can't hybridize or reform cultures.

The traditional idea of the Housecarl, which is reflected by the in game image of the housecarl unit and the Bayeux Tapestry, is of a heavy infantry unit wielding a two handed ax, known as a dane-ax. The professional core of Anglo Saxon kings prior to the conquest of Cnut would not reflect this.

Then we have unfortunately been given very different ideas of the housecarl, as I have been brought up with them being heavy armoured infantry who could be armed in a variety of fashions, including spear and shield, sword and shield, or daneax, depending on how they are being used and the preferences of their ruler.

You say the in game image of the huscarl shows a daneax - well, that's fine, but it also shows apparently as part of the same unit spears, shields, and swords.
The description is "Germanic Huscarls are masters of using shield walls to block incoming volleys of arrows" (my emphasis).

Based on that I feel that they *can* reflect an Anglo-Saxon professional core, even if the name is inaccurate.

 

[Darumaka]

I'd say that an Anglo-Saxon country conquered by a Norse character is more likely to hybridise (Anglo-Norse? Aenglish?) than for Anglo-Saxon to gain the housecarls.

Huscarls are a bit of an odd one, as "a professional core" could reflect that sort of unit, and of course from 867 they could again hybridise with the Norse if they have some appropriate counties to get the tradition.

It would be Anglo-Danish rather than Anglo-Norse. The Norse were most active in Scotland and Ireland, with a bit of Cumbria and Wales, while the Danes were mostly concentrated in England. The leaders of the Great Heathen Army, Guthrum, as well as Sweyn and Cnut were most often referred to as Danes.
I agree on the Huscarl point, that would basically represent the werod which was the noble warrior class of Anglo-Saxon England that fought most of the battles. The fyrd or conscript levies wouldn't really participate in combat very much until the Vikings showed up, prior to that battles in England were fought by armies numbering in the hundreds, rarely ever hitting more than a thousand men as peasants weren't part of combat.

The traditional idea of the Housecarl, which is reflected by the in game image of the housecarl unit and the Bayeux Tapestry, is of a heavy infantry unit wielding a two handed ax, known as a dane-ax. The professional core of Anglo Saxon kings prior to the conquest of Cnut would not reflect this.

But the werod and heorþ-werods were basically heavy infantry which served a similar role to that of later housecarls, except drawn from the nobility rather than being hiredmenn. I think the tradition works as is, although perhaps it could be modified to one that allows more heavy infantry men-at-arms and makes them tougher, whilst reducing the number of levies gained from castles, perhaps called something like "Professional Army," "Warrior Class," or simply "Werods."

Maybe a combination of the already existing "Stand and Fight!" tradition with that of "Hirds," of couse without the +Heavy Cavalry toughness as the Anglo-Saxons did not fight with cavalry.

​

 

[vyshan]

It would be Anglo-Danish rather than Anglo-Norse. The Norse were most active in Scotland and Ireland, with a bit of Cumbria and Wales, while the Danes were mostly concentrated in England. The leaders of the Great Heathen Army, Guthrum, as well as Sweyn and Cnut were most often referred to as Danes.

true enough but in 867 all the north germans are Norse in vanilla, though I believe Sweyn and Cnut in the files are norse.

I agree on the Huscarl point, that would basically represent the werod which was the noble warrior class of Anglo-Saxon England that fought most of the battles. The fyrd or conscript levies wouldn't really participate in combat very much until the Vikings showed up, prior to that battles in England were fought by armies numbering in the hundreds, rarely ever hitting more than a thousand men as peasants weren't part of combat.

But the werod and heorþ-werods were basically heavy infantry which served a similar role to that of later housecarls, except drawn from the nobility rather than being hiredmenn. I think the tradition works as is, although perhaps it could be modified to one that allows more heavy infantry men-at-arms and makes them tougher, whilst reducing the number of levies gained from castles, perhaps called something like "Professional Army," "Warrior Class," or simply "Werods."

Maybe a combination of the already existing "Stand and Fight!" tradition with that of "Hirds," of couse without the +Heavy Cavalry toughness as the Anglo-Saxons did not fight with cavalry.

So I am doing something like that for my mod, though I have localized it as the Fyrd. It is as you mentioned mainly a combination of Stand and fight with that of Hirds, and lacking the heavy cavalry effects; they had cavalry but didn't really use them. I also gave them a small build speed bonus to reflect the fact that part of the obligations was to build and repair bridges and fortresses.

There also will be a second Fyrd tradition that allows Housecarls to come about, requiring a north Germanic Ruler to have Ruled for about 20 years or so over England to reflect how they came about with Sweyn and Cnut. In 1066 that will have already happened.

 

[Darumaka]

true enough but in 867 all the north germans are Norse in vanilla, though I believe Sweyn and Cnut in the files are norse.

So I am doing something like that for my mod, though I have localized it as the Fyrd. It is as you mentioned mainly a combination of Stand and fight with that of Hirds, and lacking the heavy cavalry effects; they had cavalry but didn't really use them. I also gave them a small build speed bonus to reflect the fact that part of the obligations was to build and repair bridges and fortresses.

There also will be a second Fyrd tradition that allows Housecarls to come about, requiring a north Germanic Ruler to have Ruled for about 20 years or so over England to reflect how they came about with Sweyn and Cnut. In 1066 that will have already happened.

Fyrd refers to the conscript army of peasants, not the elite warrior class. The name for that tradition should instead be Werod, which was the name of that noble warrior class. Anglo-Saxons did not have cavalry however. They had horses, which they used to ride into battle, but then upon arriving they would dismount and fight on foot. Cavalry wouldn't become a thing in England until the Normans conquered it.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

It would be Anglo-Danish rather than Anglo-Norse.

Sure, historically it'd have been Anglo-Dane, but in game the Great Heathen Army characters who are most likely to take bits of England and hybridise start Norse.

Either way it's not important for the point I was trying to make.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

But the werod and heorþ-werods were basically heavy infantry which served a similar role to that of later housecarls, except drawn from the nobility rather than being hiredmenn. I think the tradition works as is, although perhaps it could be modified to one that allows more heavy infantry men-at-arms and makes them tougher, whilst reducing the number of levies gained from castles, perhaps called something like "Professional Army," "Warrior Class," or simply "Werods."

​

Just because they served the same role doesn't mean they should be treated as huscarls. The shield wall was basically all they had in common with the Cnut huscarls. They were less professional. The weapons and fighting style were not a one to one comparison. Unlike the fyrd, the heavy infantry had better equipment and some training but were not as powerful as huscarls. Lumping them under the huscarl term would be like lumping the mid Republic Roman legion troops with the late Republic Roman legion troops.

 

[Riaman98]

true enough but in 867 all the north germans are Norse in vanilla, though I believe Sweyn and Cnut in the files are norse.

So I am doing something like that for my mod, though I have localized it as the Fyrd. It is as you mentioned mainly a combination of Stand and fight with that of Hirds, and lacking the heavy cavalry effects; they had cavalry but didn't really use them. I also gave them a small build speed bonus to reflect the fact that part of the obligations was to build and repair bridges and fortresses.

There also will be a second Fyrd tradition that allows Housecarls to come about, requiring a north Germanic Ruler to have Ruled for about 20 years or so over England to reflect how they came about with Sweyn and Cnut. In 1066 that will have already happened.

EPE culture expanded have norse, sweyrs, danes, geats, jutes and gots. I do not think another new mod needs to be made for them.

 

[Darumaka]

Just because they served the same role doesn't mean they should be treated as huscarls. The shield wall was basically all they had in common with the Cnut huscarls. They were less professional. The weapons and fighting style were not a one to one comparison. Unlike the fyrd, the heavy infantry had better equipment and some training but were not as powerful as huscarls. Lumping them under the huscarl term would be like lumping the mid Republic Roman legion troops with the late Republic Roman legion troops.

I'd argue the warriors of the Werod were much better fighters than the huscarls of Cnut and his successors, and they were certainly better trained as their development began early in childhood. Huscarls were less powerful than the Werods of old, but far more numerous. Both were vastly superior than the Fyrd levies though.

In that post I suggested how the Hirds tradition could be changed to represent the pre-huscarl Werods, so it's not like I'm "lumping them together." It's just that for gameplay purposes in this quasi-historical game, the difference between the Anglo-Saxon noble warrior class and the Anglo-Danish huscarls are not so vast that changing it should take priority over the many other issues plaguing Britain in the game. At the end of the day, in-game the unique units would both still be heavy infantry, just with some different stats.