'ello girls!

[The Andy-Man]

I was wondering if Paradox will have women in V2. I don't remeber them being in V1, and seeing as they make up half the population, and seeing what a stir they caused in some countries, they probably should be.

There are alot of reasons why, but I think peope get my point, and I haven't once seen mention of them.

And before anyone says they didn't have enough influence in this period to be worth bothering with, what is the name of the game again?

 

[Orinsul]

how were there not any women in Victoria?
do you mean youd like a new lot of events about womens suffrage? or a new pop group for women, which would well be stupid. Just because a POP has the graphic of a man doesnt mean it doesnt include women. surely the women are included in the headcount without segregation.

the way i remember it and this is possibly incorrect. but in victoria didnt work efficiency increase over time on account of growing number of women in the work place?

 

[The Andy-Man]

how were there not any women in Victoria?
do you mean youd like a new lot of events about womens suffrage? or a new pop group for women, which would well be stupid. Just because a POP has the graphic of a man doesnt mean it doesnt include women. surely the women are included in the headcount without segregation.

the way i remember it and this is possibly incorrect. but in victoria didnt work efficiency increase over time on account of growing number of women in the work place?

I can't remember too well how it worked in the first one. Secondly, the unit representing both sexs seems quite 'stupid', because I cannot imagine any women in a capitalist pop of 100,000 in 1860 being even remotley realistic. Nor in a manual industrial labour one, that gets turned into soldiers.

Which brings me to my next point, if a major war is ongoing and the men are increasingly mobilised, there is obviously less people working, which is why women did the jobs, therefore a female 'pop' of 'housewives' slowly becomes labourers, or office workers etc.

This dosn't include voting rights, and when included women changed voting demographics immensley.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

IIRC VIC POPs were magnified by some factor to take account of the non-working, bairns, old folk and tarts.

It's not perfect but whether or not the absence of numerated women really damaged VIC is open to doubt.

 

[Orinsul]

you cant imagine capitalists being married?
It includes both, the housewives should be counted with the husband. There is no need for a seperate POP for it, it would only be patronising and unmanageable and the numbers in each province would quickly become illogical, migration would need to be linked and it would work, POPs include that population group and their wives and childern, as women are driven into the workplace work efficency rises so as to show the rising number of women in the work place and until womens sufferage say 15% of the votes could not be counted or something.

 

[unmerged(77752)]

With all do love and respect to women, females POPS in the time period would have been quite useless.

They didn't work, atleast not in any type of proprotion that men did or anything like in todays world. It would be very un-Victorian for women to be used for work or unimagiably military serivce. Women wern't allowed to vote and run for many, if any, public offices so they wouldn't have had any type of political power (later in the 1920's but thats at the end). They were treated more akin to property, then as people, so they wouldn't be anything powerful like aristocrats or clergy.

The only uses they would have in this game would be as Florence Nightengales, food makers and baby makers.

 

[Orinsul]

Female POPs in any time period would be quite useless and only there to buy PC points and upset the workings of the game.
Men and women both work on the farm and to segregate them into sexes would be disaportative and entirely unrepresentive as it wouldnt work, the farmer and his wife, and eldest childern too work the same land and together, a craftsman is dependent on his wife and in man cases his wife would work with him also and those women who work can be represented by the industry they labour in, women clerks are still clerks. To over complicate the system for no good reason would bring it down and ruin the game utterly and take away any sense of meaning to the POPs.

Dont get bogged down in the politics, use an ounce of common sense and even a second think about the workings of the game.

 

[OHgamer]

One POP represents 4 humans.

the gender of the one POP is not given, and can just as well represent women as men, considering the large percent of women who indeed were the "breadwinnners" in terms of employment in agriculture, factory or service work in this period.

and considering for many parts of the world getting even somewhat reliable population data before 1900 is difficult at best, trying to determing gender ratios to represent separate women and men POPs would be a nightmare.

As far as suffrage for women goes, one could replicate it by having the number of votes double in elections, with the odds of a POP casting a "split vote" to represent differences between male and female votes in elections might work. the lower the consciousness of the POPs the greater chance for vote divergence, with some random percent added in to reflect the generally more conservative voting preferences of females who did exercise their rights to vote in the Victoria period.

 

[ashandresash]

With all do love and respect to women, females POPS in the time period would have been quite useless.

They didn't work, atleast not in any type of proprotion that men did or anything like in todays world. It would be very un-Victorian for women to be used for work or unimagiably military serivce. Women wern't allowed to vote and run for many, if any, public offices so they wouldn't have had any type of political power (later in the 1920's but thats at the end). They were treated more akin to property, then as people, so they wouldn't be anything powerful like aristocrats or clergy.

The only uses they would have in this game would be as Florence Nightengales, food makers and baby makers.

Total disagree, for some sectors. For example, in mining women were negligible (not children); but the inverse situation happened in textile industry.

In "Booth, C. "On the Occupations of the People of the United Kingdom, 1801-81." Journal of the Royal Statistical Society (J.S.S.) XLIX (1886)", I saw this data:

For the UK, percentages over total workforce in the sector:

Mining
Children <15: 13% (1851), 12% (1861), 10% (1871), 6% (1881).
Women: 2% (1851), 1% (1861), 1% (1871), 1% (1881)

Textiles and Dyeing
Children <15: 15% (1851), 19% (1861), 14% (1871), 11% (1881).
Women: 48% (1851), 71% (1861), 51% (1871), 54% (1881).

Also, girls were very few of 'miner children', but about a 60% of textiles/dyeing working children.

In this two sectors, women and children were about one million of workers in absolute numbers.

My proposal: relation of total population / POP size (4 in Vicky IIRC) related to legislation on children/women work.

Or at least, don't do anything about this because of huge additional research needed for this question, and (as I posted long time ago), because demographics would become a nightmare to manage). But not because 'they were quite useless'

EDIT: I agree that we better keep the issue abstracted. But because game reasons, not because the false idea that women were 'useless' in that (or whatever) period.

 

[Kaiserschmarrn]

I find the idea of Dahomey having female soldier pops very apealing.

 

[unmerged(48056)]

Women should be a commodity.
Conquer Russia and you should be able to offer your soldiers 400 acres and a blond Russian woman, take that Lincoln!

 

[Kaiserschmarrn]

I dont think that would fly.

 

[MAHak]

Many women where employed as typewriters and telephone operators in the 1920's, at least in the western world.

And what about the armament industry during WW1?

 

[The Andy-Man]

I didn't mean for this to get so heated, but anyway

I agree abstraction is best, but i think that about most of this game. But with a newish pop system, i think it might be an element that needs better representation.

Also, ashandresash has very admirabley bothered to get the information that I was thinking of when I started the thread. Women were most certainly involved in the work place, and let us not forget, pre industrialised USA had alot of women working from home. But also as ashandresash, there is a demographical nightmare to go along with this all

 

[MAHak]

One POP represents 4 humans.

Instead of 1 POP representing 4 humans(1 working man, 1 housewife and 2 children, i presume).
1 POP could represent 3.8 humans later in the game. So something like 1 in 5 women where counted for in the workforce. This modification should only affect clerks, craftsmen and labour/farmers. As i dont think there where any women in the other POPs.

 

[Gihren Zabi]

I can see democracies and constitutional monarchies with full male suffrage later in the game having issues with the women's suffrage movement, but for the most part, gender does not really make sense as an issue for the game.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Women should be a commodity.
Conquer Russia and you should be able to offer your soldiers 400 acres and a blond Russian woman, take that Lincoln!

How dare you. Women should be a pop that processes grain and sugar into delicious cake.

 

[EUnderhill]

Isn't there an event that adds to munitions factory effeciencies during late game war to represent "Rosie the riveter"? I would think V2 could do something similar.

 

[Faulty]

Needless complexity

 

[Dark Knight]

With all do love and respect to women, females POPS in the time period would have been quite useless.

They didn't work, atleast not in any type of proprotion that men did or anything like in todays world. It would be very un-Victorian for women to be used for work or unimagiably military serivce.

Women worked in smaller proportion than men, but nonetheless constituted a considerable part of the labour force. In France, for example, women comprised 30% of the total labour force in 1866, rising to 38% in 1908. In the West generally, women were particularly employed in agriculture and certain consumer goods industries (e.g. textiles) and also in trade and various other services that lacked any representation in Victoria 1. It's a myth that Victorian-era women did nothing but stay in the home.