Elizabeth, Anjou, and Orange

[Garbon]

I didn't really know where to put this, as its a few jumbled ideas that draw on various nations.

As I brought up in the EEP British Isles thread, I'm curious if we could have some event sequence of sorts dealing with the possibility that Elizabeth I might have married. Specifically with regards to Francis, Duke of Alencon, as he seems to have had the best chance. He did after all get Elizabeth to sign an open and eventually abandoned marriage treaty. Of course net effects of this would primarily be unrest in England. (Perhaps if England was catholic instead of Protestant, there could even be a sequence about Charles of the Hapsburgs)

Also, concerning Elizabeth, I wonder if there should be something about the Dutch offering her their crown. Clearly accepting it would have to be the choice b or c option and have horrible (at least short term) consequences. I mean, that is why she didn't accept the very tempting offer.

The Duke of Alencon became the Duke of Anjou and eventually accepted the offer to become sovereign of the United Provinces. Now though he was largely a figure-head, he still technically was the monarch from 1581-83. Tied along with him we could have his "French Fury" and how he was disgraced when he lost after "attacking" Antwerp. In a similar vein, do we have an assassination of William of Orange event?

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Originally posted by Garbon
In a similar vein, do we have an assassination of William of Orange event?

Alkar wrote one. I think it was included in the end, although he never posted it on the EEP forum.

 

[Garbon]

Oh, ok. I wasn't sure and just added that last bit because I realized I hadn't written anything about Orange

 

[Garbon]

Okay, I see the assassination event, but I think that the text choice of option a should be changed to English. I understand that those were his last words, but unless you just happen to know that or read through the event file, the average person won't know why those words are used. Since the translation is right next to it, it should be easy just to swap the two phrases.

Also, we seem to have an 'eep_hol' and a 'major_hol'. Perhaps the two should be combined?

 

[Garbon]

Her Suitors - After Becoming Queen

[color=white]event = {
	id = 164300
	trigger = { monarch = 04041 }
	random = no
	country = ENG
	name = "The Question of Tudor Succession"
	desc = "The Tudor family was not a very fertile one and as a result there were a lack of suitable heirs to replace Elizabeth, should she die heirless. 
Elizabeth was unwilling to appoint an heir, as she, herself, had been one and unwilling to make another a focus of conspiracy and rebellion. 
She also knew that an heir would be a threat to her security and is stated as having said that she would find herself in the Tower 'within a month' of choosing an heir. 
Inevitably, the solution that arose would be for Elizabeth to marry and give birth to heirs. 
On February 4th, the House of Commons issued a formal petition asking the Queen to 'marry as soon as possible in order to safeguard the succession.' 
Elizabeth would respond by declaring her intent to remain a virgin and her belief that she was already married to the Kingdom of England. 
She concluded her reply by stating, 'In the end, this shall be for me sufficient, that a marble stone shall declare that a queen, having reigned such a time, lived and died a virgin' 
With such, the question of succession would linger throughout her reign."
	style = 1
	date = { day = 4 month = february year = 1559 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "I am already bound unto a husband, which is the Kingdom of England"
		command = { type = ADM which = 1 value = 6 }
		}
	action_b ={ 
		name = "The realm shall not remain destitute of an heir"
		command = { type = ADM which = 1 value = 12 }
	}
	action_c ={ 
		name = "God willing, I shall mary"
		command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = 1 }
		command = { type = stability value = 2 }
	}
}

event = {
	id = 164301
	trigger = { 
		event = 164300
		ai = no
	}
	random = no
	country = ENG
	name = "Elizabeth's Wishes"
	desc = "Mini-event to give player more expanded view of Elizabeth's thoughts on marriage. Mainly to point out why marriage might be bad. Will be expanded upon in acutal suitor events."
	style = 1
	date = { day = 5 month = february year = 1559 }
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Or for that matter suffer death"
		command = { type = relation which = -1 value = -5 }
		command = { type = relation which = -1 value = -5 }
		}
}[/color]

Both would really just be events to give some flavor, although the first would trigger different things based on what option was chosen.

I think, that although, all rulers faced marriage and suitors and Elizabeth is somewhat of a special case simply because she was the 'Virgin Queen' and so a lot during her reign was centered around succession and the need to marry.


A list of Possible Suitors

-James Hamilton, Earl of Arran, brings claim to Scottish throne till Mary gives birth as heir to Scottish throne. Stab at French but Elizabeth was unimpressed and he ended up insane. So perhaps random event if Elizabeth accepts him or not if choice is made to pursue negotiations.
-Phillip II, most likely only if England is Protestant, to bring back "into the fold" - maybe just flavour event to set weakening relations as not really likely
-Archdukes of Austria
-Ferdinand - not pressed because Elizabeth rejected Phillip, possible if England is Catholic?
-Charles - 'could surely convert Elizabeth to catholicism' events about inspection and haggling
-Prince Erik of Sweden - unlikely unless 'uber-Sweden', did press his claim hard though
-The Dukes of Holstein and Saxony were not given much thought, but would be easy to do events if she married one of them
-Pickering and Earl of Arundel - mainly for flavour but easy to do, if she does marry one of them, these two would represent marrying a subject
-A few mini-events about Robert Dudley and his courtship, very very very slight chance of evey marrying Elizabeth, same like Pickering and Arundel
-French suitors
-Charles IX - 14 when Queen was 31, just sort of shows Medici's attempts at alliance with England
-Duke of Anjou, not very likely as he had his thing for males and then left for Polish throne
-Francis I, Duke of Alencon, greatest chance of actually marrying Elizabeth, had that marriage contract, also events about crown of Netherlands as well

Other related bits would be:
-Crown of Netherlands -something about how she was offered the crown
-Grey sisters and Succession - how they met their fates after having children. Possible even false dynastic lines(?)
-More interaction between Scotland and England about Mary Queen of Scots. Right now, we simply have an event that says she was the focus of conspiracies...blablabla. Her threat to Elizabeth should be more real.

All of this, is just an attempt to make the player become deeper immersed in the real history of the time and feel closer connection to the personages. Of course, just in case the player got tired of all this marriage-haggling (went on quite a bit with Austria), there'd be a few out events, giving the player the option to stay adamant with the choice not to marry and thus sleeping all of the other marriage events. I hope it won't have to come to that though.

 

[unmerged(547)]

Originally posted by Garbon
I didn't really know where to put this, as its a few jumbled ideas that draw on various nations.

As I brought up in the EEP British Isles thread, I'm curious if we could have some event sequence of sorts dealing with the possibility that Elizabeth I might have married. Specifically with regards to Francis, Duke of Alencon, as he seems to have had the best chance. He did after all get Elizabeth to sign an open and eventually abandoned marriage treaty. Of course net effects of this would primarily be unrest in England. (Perhaps if England was catholic instead of Protestant, there could even be a sequence about Charles of the Hapsburgs)

Also, concerning Elizabeth, I wonder if there should be something about the Dutch offering her their crown. Clearly accepting it would have to be the choice b or c option and have horrible (at least short term) consequences. I mean, that is why she didn't accept the very tempting offer.

The Duke of Alencon became the Duke of Anjou and eventually accepted the offer to become sovereign of the United Provinces. Now though he was largely a figure-head, he still technically was the monarch from 1581-83. Tied along with him we could have his "French Fury" and how he was disgraced when he lost after "attacking" Antwerp. In a similar vein, do we have an assassination of William of Orange event?

I thought that Anjou would have been the most likely for Elizabeth's husband or even Dudley had she said damn the theories of murder and married him anyhow.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Re: Her Suitors - After Becoming Queen

Originally posted by Garbon
-Grey sisters and Succession - how they met their fates after having children. Possible even false dynastic lines(?)

If you want to pursue this possibility, I did some research about a year ago that might be useful. Essentially, I was looking for alternatives to the Hanoverian dynasty for the 1700s, & what I found was actually how few alternatives there were (the Tudors were *very* messed up dynastically). Anyway, if it would help, I can dig through my old notes & see what I come up with.

 

[Garbon]

Re: Re: Elizabeth, Anjou, and Orange

Originally posted by Doc
I thought that Anjou would have been the most likely for Elizabeth's husband or even Dudley had she said damn the theories of murder and married him anyhow.

Yeah, I'm going to make Anjou the most likely choice with Dudley being a close second.

 

[Garbon]

Re: Re: Her Suitors - After Becoming Queen

Originally posted by Johnny Canuck
If you want to pursue this possibility, I did some research about a year ago that might be useful. Essentially, I was looking for alternatives to the Hanoverian dynasty for the 1700s, & what I found was actually how few alternatives there were (the Tudors were *very* messed up dynastically). Anyway, if it would help, I can dig through my old notes & see what I come up with.

That'd be great.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Re: Re: Re: Her Suitors - After Becoming Queen

Originally posted by Garbon
That'd be great.

Here is what I have been able to put together - if Elizabeth decided to overlook the Stuart line, then the sucession would have fallen through Mary Tudor, daughter of Henry VII and grandmother to the Grey sisters. Obviously, by Elizabeth's accession Lady Jane Grey, along with her father and husband, had already lost their heads, while her mother Frances Grey (nee Brandon) died in late 1559. Thus, after 1559 the heir is the second Grey sister, Catherine. Her succession, however, would have been problematic. In 1560, she secretly wed Edward Seymour, 1st Earl of Hertford, an action that enraged Elizabeth - not only had they wed without her permission, but at this time Catherine was as much of a threat to her throne as Mary Queen of Scots. Elizabeth ensured that Catherine's marriage was given no legal sanction, and indeed she was locked up in the Tower, where Catherine gave birth to two sons (Edward Seymour & Thomas Seymour) before her death in 1567. Thus, in a strictly legal sense, Catherine's children were excluded from the succession. However, it is not hard to imagine a rival group asserting their claim to the throne if things got ugly - indeed, Catherine's marriage was retroactively approved by the church after 1603.

Now, if you take Catherine Grey out of the equation, then the heir becomes the youngest sister, Mary Grey. However, though she did marry, she did not have any children before her death in 1578. So that takes care of the Grey line.

So with the Greys finished, the line of sucession (excluding the Stuarts) falls through Eleanor Brandon (who died in 1547), the younger sister of Frances Grey (nee Brandon). She married Henry Clifford, and had one daugther, Margaret. She in turn married Henry Stanley, 4th Earl of Derby. After Margaret died in 1596, the claim passed to her son William Stanley, 6th Earl of Derby (William's older brother Fernando had been the 5th Earl, but he died before Margaret).

That exhausts the heirs (during the reign of Elizabeth) of Mary Tudor. It might have been possible that some faction might have ruled all of the above out of the line of sucession, due to the whole Lady Jane Grey debacle. The problem here is that, if you take out the above, there are no other heirs to Henry VII. To find another option, you essentially have to go back into the War of the Roses. That is when it gets complicated.

 

[Garbon]

So maybe we could have a false line out of Catherine if England was really weak and the rebels managed to control x amount of provinces or something. The only problem with that, would be that we need multiple Elizabeth monarchs, in the event that her reign was cut short. If we did have any diverging lines though we'd really want to reign that back in, to give us as many choices to get back to the historical continuum.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

I like the idea of having a false line come out of Catherine Grey if England really starts to collapse. The way back into the historical line might be on her death in 1567, & having a rebellion by those who refuse to recognize her children as legitimate.

 

[Garbon]

That would make sense, but who would we have take over in 1567? An Elizabeth who went into hiding? James I? We could also do a re-insertion sometime during James's historical reign. I'm brushing up on my English history to look into that.

All in all, other than the Queen of Scots (she'd actually be easy as her son could quickly follow after her), I think that Catherine is our best chance at a replacement for Elizabeth.

 

[Garbon]

I love it!

http://englishhistory.net/tudor/tudortree.bmp

 

[Garbon]

Originally posted by Garbon
The only problem with that, would be that we need multiple Elizabeth monarchs, in the event that her reign was cut short.

Oh wait, is it possible to sleep an active monarch?


I'm also starting to think that if England was in trouble prior or at the beginning of Elizabeth's reign, not only would Lady Catherine Grey have been pushed but Mary Stuart also by her Guise relatives. So events with the Queen of Scots being a threat should exist whether we have Elizabeth or not. Perhaps amplified if Catherine rules.

Would Catherine have been Catholic or Protestant? I'm thinking Catholic only because she would have followed in Mary's footsteps but perhaps I'm off base. Perhaps then Jane Grey's Protestant beliefs?

 

[unmerged(15559)]

Originally posted by Garbon
Oh wait, is it possible to sleep an active monarch?

As I recall the answer to that is yes, it's active leaders that won't sleep (Sleep Gilles de Rais, damn you sleep. He never listens).

Would Catherine have been Catholic or Protestant? I'm thinking Catholic only because she would have followed in Mary's footsteps but perhaps I'm off base.

She would be limited in strength coming to power like this. Look to her supporters, the locigal answer lies there.

 

[Garbon]

Originally posted by Lord Tarleton
She would be limited in strength coming to power like this. Look to her supporters, the locigal answer lies there.

Then it appears that she would be protestant.

 

[Garbon]

Okay, here is my first mock-up of event if Catherine was placed upon the throne. Perhaps the trigger is too lenient? I'm not really sure. I have three such events that have will have different descriptions or effects depending on what happened historically. (Catherine pre-marriage, Married Catherine, Married Catherine after lock up in Tower).

event = {

	id = 
	trigger = {
		event = 3014
		control = { province = 247 data = REB }
		OR = {
			control = { province = 245 data = REB } 
			control = { province = 246 data = REB }
			control = { province = 248 data = REB }
			control = { province = 249 data = REB }
			control = { province = 240 data = REB }
			control = { province = 241 data = REB }
		} 
		NOT = {
			countrysize = 20
			stability = 0
			event = ????? #Previous event
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = ENG
	name = "Accession of Catherine Grey"
	desc = "Like her sister, the Nine Days Queen, Catherine Grey did not aspire to be Queen of England. 
In a similar fashion, Catherine Grey was also to be used as a pawn by Protestant nobles who had been disgruntled under the rule of Bloody Mary.
 Although, they initally backed Elizabeth as she was Henry's heir, her incompetence during her short reign 
(mainly she failed to be malleable) gave them cause to look for another more 'capable' sovereign. 
With that, Catherine found herself the 'leader' of a rebellion against Elizabeth and before she knew it, was proclaimed Queen of England. 
However, the question remained what to do with the desposed Elizabeth? 
To kill her would be cruel, but to allow her to remain free would be suicide."
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = december year = 1560 }
	offset = 0
	deathdate = { day = 31 month = june year = 1561 }
	action_a ={			
		name = "Put Elizabeth in the Tower!"
		command = { type = wakemonarch which = ????? } #Catherine Grey
		command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 04041 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 20003 } #Mary, Queen of Scots event for SCO
	}
	action_b ={			
		name = "Put Elizabeth under the control of ****"
		command = { type = wakemonarch which = ????? } #Catherine Grey
		command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 04041 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 20003 } #Mary, Queen of Scots event for SCO
	}
	action_c ={			
		name = "Behead her!"
		command = { type = wakemonarch which = ????? } #Catherine Grey
		command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 04041 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 25 }
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 20003 } #Mary, Queen of Scots event for SCO
		command = { type = sleepevent which = ????? } #Event for Elizabeth's return after Catherine's death
	}
}

EDIT: Just noticed that I'll need to put a conversion of state religion to Protestant in these events.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

The event looks good, Garbon. One question/suggestion I would have is whether or not there should be a religion trigger. Would this make sense if, at the moment it was triggered, England was Catholic? Perhaps there should be two versions - the current one if England is Protestant, & an alternate if England is Catholic. They would be broadly similar, but I would think that the Catholic event would have more lenient triggers, as if Elizabeth embraced Catholicism there would have been much more unrest than historically was the case during her reign.

 

[Garbon]

That would indeed make sense. No doubt there would have been a greater outcry for Catherine Grey if she was the only Protestant choice.