Elites and specials

[unmerged(39925)]

I am too lazy to read the whole 99,000,000 pages of the intro thread, but did manage to hear the first page of people not wanting Elites, well I personally want a Waffen SS(The Waffen SS wern't all criminals, their name means Weapon Protection Squadron so many were army soldiers, specially trained.). I would also like men like the SAS and OSS. That would be realistic because the SAS were sent out to Sicily to sabatoge equipment. I also read somewhere a single SS division is what subdued Denmark into peace(it didn't take alot). I am sorry if this has been posted many times(don't get angry at me please). If it wouldn't be too much work you could just make it with a version that does have Elites. I wouldn't need a OOB for them because I would just make em myself. What would be really cool is if you could make it so Commando like units can be launched from planes and sabatoge stuff. Even as a brigade, like adding an Elite brigade to a marine corps will make it so when he lands there is a chance that 1 of the coastal fortresses will become inactive or as an interdiction mission where their organization goes down below a certain point before fighting because of communication destruction.

 

[unmerged(36280)]

I am too lazy to read the whole 99,000,000 pages of the intro thread, but did manage to hear the first page of people not wanting Elites, well I personally want a Waffen SS(The Waffen SS wern't all criminals, their name means Weapon Protection Squadron so many were army soldiers, specially trained.). I would also like men like the SAS and OSS. That would be realistic because the SAS were sent out to Sicily to sabatoge equipment. I also read somewhere a single SS division is what subdued Denmark into peace(it didn't take alot). I am sorry if this has been posted many times(don't get angry at me please). If it wouldn't be too much work you could just make it with a version that does have Elites. I wouldn't need a OOB for them because I would just make em myself. What would be really cool is if you could make it so Commando like units can be launched from planes and sabatoge stuff. Even as a brigade, like adding an Elite brigade to a marine corps will make it so when he lands there is a chance that 1 of the coastal fortresses will become inactive or as an interdiction mission where their organization goes down below a certain point before fighting because of communication destruction.

yes i agree with you i think waffen ss were the equaivalent of today special forces and they should have higher values of breakthrough than the other units and are absolutely necessary to keep the game as close as possible to the reality of ww2

 

[unmerged(39925)]

Yes, people who say it wasn't historical are not correct. Special ops have been used since the turn of the 20th century(Even before, Fussilier, Foot Guards etc.), in the use of German Sturmtruppen(WW1) and others. Another realism thing if you could program it would be if you had authoritaria/closed society that MPs will do more surpression(like the secret police) instead of open police.

 

[Emperor of Europe]

The units in the game are division scale. Special forces are not deployed in that scale. So Brandenburgers, SAS etc. cannot be simulated through anything but events.

What you are talking about are elite units. While it is true that a few SS divisions were regarded as elite, the majority were not. With the current combat system units gain experience, allowing them to become 'elite'. So what you are asking for is in the game already.

Having said that, it might be a good idea for game/fun purposes to allow for a few "super" divisions. Maybe through events, or like the SS-brigades in the Stony Road mod.

rgds/EoE

 

[Luxor]

In TRP mod we are giving SS elite divisions by events. They are not buildable.

 

[unmerged(44544)]

The game supports Waffen SS already - how?

Change the name of the unit to reflect the SS Division name.
Prioritize them for upgrades and reinforcements.

IMO That's pretty close to the reality of an SS division. Plenty of poorly performing SS divisions existed alongside with the ones that did well (I would give examples but sources are not handy). Remember that some wehrmacht divisions performed better than others too and the Fallschrimjager and Gerbisjager divisions (represented in the game) were also considered 'Elite'.

So what do you actually want- special forces or divisions with higher morale?

I doubt special forces could or should be represented in this game as actual units - perhaps as something that you could research or build that affects the enemy. Say, allows a one off port strike ala Dieppe (Commandoes) or increases partisan activity in a province (SOE) or reduces infrastructure in selected provinces by disrupting communications (SAS, Brandenburgers).

As for units with higher morale than other units in their class: This seems reasonable; any nation should be able to make them, they should take longer to build and should only be able to draw on a small % of the available manpower - they are picked men after all. The unit type, i.e. equipment they get is up to you - you can prioritize them for upgrades and re-enforcements... and you can call em what you want.

Viniga

 

[JRaup]

In TRP mod we are giving SS elite divisions by events. They are not buildable.

We've done the same for CORE. The scheme covers all historically built (even on paper) SS divisions. Each is some what situation specific, as choices in certain events will impact the development/extent of SS divisions available to the German player/AI. At some point in teh future, ahistorical "fantasy" SS divisions may become part of the scheme to cover German victories that never happened in RL.

 

[Lothos]

Sorry Jraup, Luxor and I have spoken and I made him aware of the un-written rule of one mod not advertising itself on another mods forum. It will not happen again and thanks for your courteous reply

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I am too lazy to read the whole 99,000,000 pages of the intro thread, but did manage to hear the first page of people not wanting Elites, well I personally want a Waffen SS(The Waffen SS wern't all criminals, their name means Weapon Protection Squadron so many were army soldiers, specially trained.). I would also like men like the SAS and OSS. That would be realistic because the SAS were sent out to Sicily to sabatoge equipment. I also read somewhere a single SS division is what subdued Denmark into peace(it didn't take alot). I am sorry if this has been posted many times(don't get angry at me please). If it wouldn't be too much work you could just make it with a version that does have Elites. I wouldn't need a OOB for them because I would just make em myself. What would be really cool is if you could make it so Commando like units can be launched from planes and sabatoge stuff. Even as a brigade, like adding an Elite brigade to a marine corps will make it so when he lands there is a chance that 1 of the coastal fortresses will become inactive or as an interdiction mission where their organization goes down below a certain point before fighting because of communication destruction.

Waffen SS is more like Armed Protection Squadron.

The German invasion force of Denmark in april 1940 consisted of the XXXI. Abteilung which was a made up of 2 divisions, the 170th and 198th infantry division, should these divisions be 'elite' units then ?

Also the Waffen SS divisions were something quite different then the SAS, Commando's, US Rangers or the German Brandenburgers (not to be confused with the Brandenburg Panzer Grenadier Division), these were Special Forces and operated in units to small to be represented in a game of the scale of HOI2. Waffen SS divisions were 'normal' fighting divisions not to be confused with special forces, alltough there were also Special forces formed from Waffen SS units, the SS Sonderverband zbV Friedenthal led by Otto Skorzeny, later renamed to 502nd SS Jäger Battalion, later renamed to Jagdverband 'Mitte', plus some other odly named small units. But nothing on a divisionscale.

And in the game there are Waffen SS divisions, and you can make them elite by giving them the latest equipment first, add brigades to them, give them priority with supplies, put them at the head of all your offensives so they gain XP fast, give them the best leaders.

In the game. units should gain a 'elite' status by the XP they gain and not be elite because they are considered elite by some.

 

[unmerged(39925)]

Well these units were specially trained to begin with so XP wouldn't work in the realism sense to an extent, but like I said in my last post, a battalion like that added to a marine division that had a chance to destroy a coastal fort or reduce interdiction before the mission would be cool. Not sure if you could script that but yea.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Training doesn't make you 'elite' in my humble opinion. Fighting in battles makes you 'elite'. And I believe that only from 1943 onwards some SS units were considered elite by the german wehrmacht. Also there were about 36 to 37 Waffen SS divisions and only 5 or 6 were considered elite by the germans, the rest wasn't even of division size or of medium or even low value.

 

[Ghost_dk]

Have a look here to see what CORE will do in regards to SS and similar units:

http://hoi.coremod.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=651

 

[unmerged(39925)]

"Training doesn't make you 'elite' in my humble opinion. Fighting in battles makes you 'elite'"
Elite is the training you get in the first place and excesises you do so that you are more prepared and better in battle your first time then another person fighting for the first time. Elites are trained in tactics too, and in special missions where they could destroy communications and lay groundwork for invasion. Fighting in battles makes you Veteran.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

I agree!

 

[unmerged(39925)]

Thank you Carro!

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Yes thank you Carro

As long as any country can have elite units (researched through a tech maybe) I am not against it.

 

[Ghost_dk]

There wont be elite unit training(tech/unit models) in CORE, only specific units activated through events.

 

[unmerged(36280)]

There wont be elite unit training(tech/unit models) in CORE, only specific units activated through events.

so that's the answer

 

[unmerged(39925)]

Will UK get em, will US get em? SU better, I think that they should get a few special divisions in the provinces behind Stalingrad, if the Germans reach Stalingrad, as thats what SU did historicly, adopted KVD blitz.

 

[unmerged(10168)]

Training doesn't make you 'elite' in my humble opinion. Fighting in battles makes you 'elite'. And I believe that only from 1943 onwards some SS units were considered elite by the german wehrmacht. Also there were about 36 to 37 Waffen SS divisions and only 5 or 6 were considered elite by the germans, the rest wasn't even of division size or of medium or even low value.

Throughout the war the Waffen SS had to struggle to be recognized as on par with the German fighting divisions of the old army. They were a new thing, a political force and after what happened to the SA in the 1930's they were an unknown quality. The Totenkopf gained notoriety and infamy in the 1940's campaign after they a) broke under an attack by heavily armored Matilda tanks in General Franklyn's 'Counterstroke' and b) slaughtered the surrendered soldiers of the Royal Norfolk Regiment. Hardly 'elite' troops at the time...

That all changed in Russia where they were up-armored, given better weapons and fought innumerable 'fire-brigade' actions. By 1944, yes, the older gang and the new 12th SS Hitler Jugend were pretty much 'elite' - though the 12th had to demonstrate that under fire in Normandy!!

While many think of the SS as fanatical no-quarter soldiers (oddly enough, Germans thought the same way about the Canadians!) their performance throughout most of the Arnhem battle where 9th and 10th SS Panzer Divisions faced the Allied Airborne was nearly exemplary.