Elite / Vetern Units

[Neo19]

Hey everyone,

I don't know if this has been brought up before so I'm sorry if it has. So I have a couple of questions.


1) Has anyone ever been able to get their ground units (any ground units) to increase above "level 3 regular"?

2) This one is really to the Devs. Do the Devs consider the current unit xp gains to be WAI?


From what I have seen units will never advance above level 3 no matter how much combat they are in. In fact I regularly find that units may even go down to level 2 and require that they have to use the exercise command again. I'm interested to see what other players have experienced and I would hope that a Dev might see this and comment on it. Thanks in advance!

 

[NaRen13AnnexYourself]

1) Has anyone ever been able to get their ground units (any ground units) to increase above "level 3 regular"?
Yes, you may want to get some field hospitals for your divisions to increase above that level, a good army leader also helps you to decrease casualties.

2) This one is really to the Devs. Do the Devs consider the current unit xp gains to be WAI?
I am not a Dev but I think the unit XP system works fine, think about it, your well-experienced soldiers and officers may die on the battlefield and the game shows you that by decreasing unit XP, please treat them nicely and wisely so they can fight efficiently.

 

[Dalwin]

Field hospital I is not likely to cut it either, but with tier II, it can be done. One still have to avoid attacks into unfavorable terrain etc., but it is possible.

 

[Alex_brunius]

The main issue here is that HoI4 has radically increased how much casualties infantry units on the attack takes. On the defense you can gain XP just fine...

This difference from previous games causes some issues with gaining higher XP lvls on attack and with the AI tactics of massed broad front infantry assault which worked decently in HoI2 and HoI3.

 

[alanhrap]

I think level 3 is currently top. It would be nice to have a couple of levels above that, like elite and WW2 heroes. Also, what I've noticed is that you have to be very careful with your experienced units if you want them to progress, and not throw their lives away, i.e. don't leave them surrounded by superior troops. I have several veteran divisions and they are doing just fine.

One important thing that I've noticed is that you generally don't want your best guys in your front line. There's just too many casualties there and units rarely go above regulars. What I do is I create special forces armies from my top divisions and put them on "special missions", where they do great damage (e.g. flanking) and allow your front line to progress. That way I preserve them and always have special forces if I want to get an advantage in an "operation".

Another way I use my veterans is I keep them behind the front line in several places and use them to help out the regulars in spots where they get overwhelmed. Very good tactic to keep you from losing ground, but does involve a lot of micromanagement, unfortunately.

 

[NaRen13AnnexYourself]

The main issue here is that HoI4 has radically increased how much casualties infantry units on the attack takes. On the defense you can gain XP just fine...

This difference from previous games causes some issues with gaining higher XP lvls on attack and with the AI tactics of massed broad front infantry assault which worked decently in HoI2 and HoI3.

Always keep in mind that's how the WW2 like

 

[grandad1982]

The only time I've seen elite units was when I sent some German tanks under rommel to help Japan against China before ww2 started. I guess that's because the Chinese just couldn't pierce the armour.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Always keep in mind that's how the WW2 like

Your certainly right in terms of the casualties being high on the attack for infantry in reality!

The difference is that in WW2 the veterans tended to be able to stay alive much better then the fresh recruits, so experience was better retained and these veterans could faster teach new recruits. Most casualties were the green ones ( so the amount of experience lost was much less then the averaged values used in HoI4 ).

Another difference is that not all reinforcements in reality were totally green (as they are in HoI4), most nations had various types of conscription or reserves that had undergone basic training before being deployed as reinforcements to frontline units. It was only in really desperate situations that recruits with zero training would be sent to the front.


Both of these effects could be used to improve the experience mechanics in HoI4.

The only time I've seen elite units was when I sent some German tanks under rommel to help Japan against China before ww2 started. I guess that's because the Chinese just couldn't pierce the armour.

Another big reason probably is that the Chinese couldn't afford artillery for all their units, which greatly reduce the damage they can do and increase how long combats take (thus increasing experience gained).

 

[elektrizikekswerk]

I think level 3 is currently top.

No, 5 is top iirc. Capital ships reach it quite frequent. I know, ships are no armies, but the experience levels are the same.

/edit: To topic: I think I managed some rank 4 divisions with defending Maginot.
And in my first game (as Sweden) the brave defenders in Copenhagen reached high levels while repelling the German attackers.

On attacking side I'm happy if I can keep them at level 3...

 

[alanhrap]

No, 5 is top iirc. Capital ships reach it quite frequent. I know, ships are no armies, but the experience levels are the same.

Oh, thanx. I didn't know. I actually tried to see if they go above veterans by sending mine with 100% experience progress on easy high damage battles for a very long time, but it just stayed at 100% progress without changing to another level. So I assumed it's top level for Land units.

 

[NaRen13AnnexYourself]

The difference is that in WW2 the veterans tended to be able to stay alive much better then the fresh recruits, so experience was better retained and these veterans could faster teach new recruits.

Another difference is that not all reinforcements in reality were totally green (as they are in HoI4), most nations had various types of conscription or reserves that had undergone basic training before being deployed as reinforcements to frontline units. It was only in really desperate situations that recruits with zero training would be sent to the front.


Both of these effects could be used to improve the experience mechanics in HoI4.

True, a veteran unit should suffer less attrition and manpower loss, however, I don't think there is an easier way to show that in game.

Conscription law should modify how're these reinforcements like, for example, older people would be less likely to fight as younger people, Extensive Conscription could also increase exp.loss.

 

[Alex_brunius]

I think level 3 is currently top.

Here are the 5 experience levels:

http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Experience#Unit_experience

 

[alanhrap]

Oh yes. My mistake. I counted 3 levels from regulars. It is 5 levels. I meant it would be nice to have a couple of levels (elites and heroes) above the current top veteran level (5).

 

[Dalnar]

I get elite units only when I play in South America and do a local conquest even without hospitals. Otherwise is hard to get elite units because of the high troop loss, artillery everywhere.

 

[CharlieFox]

Another big reason probably is that the Chinese couldn't afford artillery for all their units, which greatly reduce the damage they can do and increase how long combats take (thus increasing experience gained).

As Japan I had some infantry divisions (without field hospital) rise above regular when fighting China. I was pretty surprised because in my experience this is pretty uncommon (when fighting Italy, Japan, Germany in previous games my infantry tended to gain very little experience or even lose it).This could definitely be explained by lack of artillery in Chinese divisions (and possibly their crappy tier one infantry weapons)

 

[HaruhiFollower]

Hey everyone,

I don't know if this has been brought up before so I'm sorry if it has. So I have a couple of questions.


1) Has anyone ever been able to get their ground units (any ground units) to increase above "level 3 regular"?

2) This one is really to the Devs. Do the Devs consider the current unit xp gains to be WAI?


From what I have seen units will never advance above level 3 no matter how much combat they are in. In fact I regularly find that units may even go down to level 2 and require that they have to use the exercise command again. I'm interested to see what other players have experienced and I would hope that a Dev might see this and comment on it. Thanks in advance!

I don't have problems getting level 4 and 5 units. It does require being careful, especially with attack - no attacking across rivers/into mountains with regular infantry (if possible use regular infantry only to fix enemy in place or finish off encircled units...), use large divisions for extra defence and breakthrough, have plenty of CAS in the attacked area...

 

[scroggin]

To get experience gain you have to maximise the time in battle and minimise caualties. Its not hard to do with expeditionary forces to china or fighting any inferior army. Superior equipment doctrine etc helps ensure you are winning. Hospitals reduce casualties. Always try to ensure your battles are showing green attack arrows if they show red you will be taking too many casualties.

 

[Bigleady]

As the japs after winning against China and Russia, my main infantry force had several tier 5 and lots of 4s and 3s without hospitals or indeed any deliberate effort on my end. I think they finished the war with china as vets and then attacking Russia after Germany had ground away their stockpiles (to no avail - indeed as usual they were losing). Basically my troops entered a virtuous cycle of always fighting, with a high experience bonus and against infantry running out of artillery and ultimately rifles giving more experience for fewer loses.

 

[LaggyWolf]

It's easier to get higher levels of exp earlier in the game (due to lower Soft/Hard/Piercing) as the lethality of combat is lower than when every division has 3 artillery brigades years down the line. I've personally gotten only a handful of Veterans ever, they were mostly armored divisions that couldn't be penned or else had been actively defending a very favorable position for a long time (Mountains+Rivers/High-level forts).

You only really see noticeable experience gain from battles that are clearly in your favor (green numbers = less casualties) and are taking forever for some reason (low soft attack?), outside of that your divisions only get 1-3% experience per battle that ends in a few hours.

 

[Felius]

Unmodded, no. I've made a personal mod that increased battle experience for land units by 200% and reduced experience loss due to casualties by 50%, although even so, level 4 and 5 are not that common, mostly being the armored forces or less developed units fighting against less developed enemies.

The battle experience gain might have been a bit too much, but the exp loss reduction isn't, and can easily represent that the veterans try to make the rookies catch up as fast as possible, not to mention that, for most part, the rookies die disproportionally more than the vets.