They did. Ghurkas Rifles. (i know, regiments but you just have to merge them)HMS Enterprize said:
Please keep hoi3 vanilla away from those controversial things...if you want elite units then make/play a mod.
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Please keep hoi3 vanilla away from those controversial things...if you want elite units then make/play a mod.
Fernando Torres said:
Id hardly call giving known elite units stats (or a unit class of their own) 'controversial'
This thread is on its fourth page already, and you're denying that it's controversial? 
What i meant is that no one agrees on what "elite" means and how it should be represented in the game.HMS Enterprize said:
Plus, i find the word 'controversial' appropriate when i think about the so-called Waf...if by elite, one means "better" than regular, then he would be surprised to learn that some units paint as "elite" did not fight so fine...
Such things can be fine for mods but not for a public release imvho. That's what i meant.
GuderianTA said:
it would be good if they gained expirience by anti partisan duty. Troops deployed in foreign countries for years fighting guerilla should be more expirienced than a newly formed division.
Tantor's idea is good. Like artillery, heavy tanks, ect. SAS, Rangers, and other "elite" units think must be like brigades. In the case of Germany the SS divisions must be with the morale, organization like PAR, MAR, MTN divisions and with stats of normal INF/Tank division. This I think is the most balanced way of having "elite" units without total dissbalance of the game.
I think the way to prevent an army of all elite units would be to let the function of the elite unit be proportionate to the representation in the army.
One of the key factors in making an elite unit fight better is NOT training, but that it attracts the best and the brightest. Thus, in building "elite" units, the more you build, the less effectively they should fight as a whole.
So if your elite units are like the Marines, you'll have a lot of units relative to your army, but they will only fight marginally better.
On the flip side, if you have an ultra-elite unit like the green berets, it would probably only make one unit in your army, but would fight significantly better than normal units.
One of the key factors in making an elite unit fight better is NOT training, but that it attracts the best and the brightest. Thus, in building "elite" units, the more you build, the less effectively they should fight as a whole.
So if your elite units are like the Marines, you'll have a lot of units relative to your army, but they will only fight marginally better.
On the flip side, if you have an ultra-elite unit like the green berets, it would probably only make one unit in your army, but would fight significantly better than normal units.
Dogget said:
Has anyone mentioned yet just how uneffective a majority of SS divisions were?
GuderianTA said:
I don't see how your suggestions have any bearing on divisional quality.
Additionally, you might want to read some of the histories of Waffen SS or Guards units. They received reinforcement preference and offensive supply. That's it. Histories of the Waffen SS also emphasize the failure of command structures and small-unit tactics inside these divisions. Attrition rates were higher than for regular Heer units used in equivalent manners.
"Elite" units are largely the victims of propaganda campaigns by their own governments.
Decisions,decisions
I am hoping for an effect similar to that used in the mods available for HOI2, in addition to that proposed by Blu Emu. Allied divisions trained hard prior to Normandy and blu emu's proposal would allow for that. The counter argument against training missions that everybody would do it is balanced by the cost(supplies/oil/money) and pre war budgetary constraints that would prevent massive training exercises until gearing up/hawk lobby effects.
In any case an active effort to create an elite unit/force represents a concentration of effective manpower that has an opportunity cost. This cost is the leadership these bright physically capable soldiers could provide the rest of the army (ie SS recruiting standards initially absorbed a lot of soldiers that would have been fine NCO's in regular Heer formations.)
So if you want 'special units' hopefully there will be a decision available a la In Nomine that will allow the creation of a few overstrength units(whether SS/Guards/Para/Marine/Air Cav/Whatever) at the cost of decrease in effectiveness for all the regular units.
I am hoping for an effect similar to that used in the mods available for HOI2, in addition to that proposed by Blu Emu. Allied divisions trained hard prior to Normandy and blu emu's proposal would allow for that. The counter argument against training missions that everybody would do it is balanced by the cost(supplies/oil/money) and pre war budgetary constraints that would prevent massive training exercises until gearing up/hawk lobby effects.
In any case an active effort to create an elite unit/force represents a concentration of effective manpower that has an opportunity cost. This cost is the leadership these bright physically capable soldiers could provide the rest of the army (ie SS recruiting standards initially absorbed a lot of soldiers that would have been fine NCO's in regular Heer formations.)
So if you want 'special units' hopefully there will be a decision available a la In Nomine that will allow the creation of a few overstrength units(whether SS/Guards/Para/Marine/Air Cav/Whatever) at the cost of decrease in effectiveness for all the regular units.
WarDog said:
Me too. Clean, simple, sensible. IMHO for sure "elite" units should not be buildable as a special type of divisions (as some mods solve it now for HoI2). Prioritization of reinforcements & upgrading, training lenght, real combat experience - this should be what makes a division "elite" and all these depend just on a player.
And yes, Waffen SS divisions are terribly overrated today compared to their real combat efficiency and worth. Small triumph of German nazi propaganda. And a weird magnetism of SS uniforms...
kristoff said:
OK.... true, now that i think about it, elite units should not just be created. However, some more options should be implimented on creating divisions and training them up to high effectiveness that the player can bond too. But HOI2 does a poor job of making me feel bad about losing divisions or having them in combat for a long time. I wish there were someway to actually care about some divisions that i lose.
I doubt it will include.... but let's hope for people who are interested in this that you will be able to put "flag" on an unit (like the local flag of eu3 but on a unit level) to represent special training and co
I think I favour the training/combat route to elite status. Certainly 'elite' units usually get better equipment and take the fittest soldiers but this could be could be modelled ok with the current system. Perhaps linking experience to the length that units fight before breaking and combat events like encirclements happen most of the time against poor opponents.
There have been many comments about SS units being over rated though some were very good (1 - 5 SS Pz Div, 12 SS) many were not; but it prompts me to think there could be a link between national moral (dissent) and the fortunes of elite units.
On an unrelated note, I would love to see air combat losses be effected by who owns the ground underneath. Key to the Battle of Briton was fighting over the UK meant allied pilots who bailed out went back to combat while axis pilots went into PW camps.
There have been many comments about SS units being over rated though some were very good (1 - 5 SS Pz Div, 12 SS) many were not; but it prompts me to think there could be a link between national moral (dissent) and the fortunes of elite units.
On an unrelated note, I would love to see air combat losses be effected by who owns the ground underneath. Key to the Battle of Briton was fighting over the UK meant allied pilots who bailed out went back to combat while axis pilots went into PW camps.
I can remember some article on the fact that in WW2 new devisions did not perform worse than experienced units. The reason for this is probably that battle fatigue cancels any performance increase from gaining experience. The article pointed out the units which performed better than average did so from the start.
For HoI3 to be more realistic, unit experience should be left out completely. Leader bonusses could represent the difference between individual divisions. It would be nice if in HoI3 every divisions has its Major-general and you have generals and such on top of that. Then you could give certain leaders the "elite tag", so that certain divisions are "elite".
For HoI3 to be more realistic, unit experience should be left out completely. Leader bonusses could represent the difference between individual divisions. It would be nice if in HoI3 every divisions has its Major-general and you have generals and such on top of that. Then you could give certain leaders the "elite tag", so that certain divisions are "elite".
I think you've put your finger on the right point. May be the answer is not creating Elite unit but :GuderianTA said:
1. Limited Manpower : in hoi2 mp is a quite "cheap resource", thus loosing a div is not really a problem.
2. If 1. apply, then the number of divisions on the field should felt drastically and fits more historical number.
3. Setup a limit to front ratio, ie: 50 divs should not be able to attack 1 div, exact ratio has to be defined with terrain, province size ... This way a limited numbe of divs in battle will increase our interest to these divs.
4. Experienced units may have more bonus in combat. thus giving them more interest and care from player.
5. having a mission as described by Blue Emu to train division, will allow player to choose his "Elite" division.
Fernando Torres said:I tried to kill the myth in a previous post but it didn't work.
SPAM warning for this thread.
note: if you want to discuss SS units in history, there´s a history forum, you know!