Elfs need a buff. wait... BUFFF

[unmerged(495697)]

Yes they do crush Humans and Monsters in terms of mana production but your original post made is sound like you were saying they did trounce UD. Though if the Humans and Monsters had a repeatable mana build then they would likely be able to hold their own as well.


They are a lot closer than you made it sound. And we also seem to disagree on what "easier" means in terms of empire building. The fact that Elves need fewer mana cities seems easier in your mind, despite the fact that you need to ensure a strong economic base to support them. While easier in my mind means having to worry less about economic short comings to get the production out the door. UD already need to build mana cities to support pop and units so you will already be on your way to having a large mana income.

Thus with undead you can just start building a mana city without worry it is gong to kill your early income. A size 5 Elf Mana city is +17 Mana and -14 Gold while the UD is +19 Mana and -12 Gold. This sounds like a close race but it's not really that close as the UD are now finished with upkeep buildings at this point since all of their Mana Farms are free. The Elves next building in the mana chain has 10 gold upkeep and thus brings their city to Size 6 with +21 Mana and -24 Gold. The UD also appear slightly underwhelming because I remembered to include pop cost this time. But the Elves need another city it offset that with food so it is misleading. The UD can also choose to take less Mana production and skip the Mill of Souls to go right into Mana Farm production. Thus they can have size 5 city with +17 Mana and -4 Gold. This is a LOT better in terms of economic impact since your gold production barely takes a hit.

The UD have an early lead and much cheaper cost, while Elves can overtake them on a PER city basis their cost are much higher and thus need to be offset by other cities in the empire. Where as undead require very little outside support to offset the expense of running a mana city.

At least quote the full sentence:laugh: What I said was "They need a lot of mana, but they have by far the easiest time making it too, even beating out undead due to the fact that UD also eat mana for population." Do note that last part, because i think it does highlight that it's pretty close. For me the number crunch isn't the main point. My main point, when I talk about the ease of empire building concerning one resource, is how many cities of that type do I need at one time. Now the fact that elves pay more gold for it is largely irrelevant to me, because my only goal is that I have to build as few dedicated mana cities as possible to meet my needs, while all the rest are either gold cities, troop production, or perk cities. Elves with their higher max mana out of a single city do trounce the UD in that regard. I know others might have other standards, hence why I didn't claim that elves trounce the UD in mana production, instead I mentioned that they have the edge in my mind.

As for the early crunch, that's why you won't be building the mana city as your first city aside from the capitol. I always put down a gold city first, preferably two or three, because I need one anyway to pay for the capitol's building chain. Also count in one food city at some point, when I see a good location for it.

 

[unmerged(170187)]

I believe the elves were designed to be a late game faction.

Their R&D bonuses do seem to indicate that. They seem to be a race designed to rush through the spell tree and go for the Unity Victory. Kind of amusing though considering how many post there are about people who don't like that victory condition.

Certainly, I would not choose elves in an MP game where they would come under immediate stress. In single play, however, they are very playable. They require careful play for the first half of the game and their warlocks are too weak, but just like the elven paladins in MOM, once the elves get to the point where they can create phoenix, they are a real powerhouse. The phoenix, once it gets the meteor perk is far and away the most powerful unit in the game. Also, their bowmasters with the heavy arrow perk can easily take out fire and earth elementals guarding holy grounds.

There in lies the problem though. If they can't survive to late then it doesn't really matter. The elves have trouble holding off a very aggressive player in MP because of their limited unit production. And their weak HP makes it so their units die faster, so even though they have high Damage the low HP ends up making them like over priced rogues who hit hard and die quick. Problem is unlike the rogue they cost a ton and take a long time to make.

The MP vs SP argument I view as a flawed one. The reason is it's basically the same as saying, "The AI is so bad it can't pressure the player enough so what does it matter if the balance is off?". It's not like it would require a major overhaul of the race or anything. The simple lowering of some training times, lower of cost, and few extra HP on curtain units would make it so the elves stand a better chance while still being slightly weaker then the other races early game. It's the difference between getting steam rolled and slowly hammered down. A good player can slow the hammering long enough to reach his end game goal, while just getting rolled over due to overwhelming force is something else.

At least quote the full sentence:laugh: What I said was "They need a lot of mana, but they have by far the easiest time making it too, even beating out undead due to the fact that UD also eat mana for population." Do note that last part, because i think it does highlight that it's pretty close.

The first part is a complete statement on it's own and thus I quoted it directly. The second part is simply a supporting statement confirming that yes you even think they are better than the UD race which most view as the dominate mana producing race. The "By far" part would also indicate that it was a clear lead. In my latest example I was trying to show that even with UD pop requirements in place the Elves don't have an easier time.

I think the problem is in the sentence structure, though it's been a while since I took english so I'm not 100% sure. I don't really feel like getting into a grammatical debate and I know I've made plenty grammatical errors myself so we'll just chalk this one up to misunderstanding of intended text.

For me the number crunch isn't the main point. My main point, when I talk about the ease of empire building concerning one resource, is how many cities of that type do I need at one time. Now the fact that elves pay more gold for it is largely irrelevant to me, because my only goal is that I have to build as few dedicated mana cities as possible to meet my needs, while all the rest are either gold cities, troop production, or perk cities. Elves with their higher max mana out of a single city do trounce the UD in that regard. I know others might have other standards, hence why I didn't claim that elves trounce the UD in mana production, instead I mentioned that they have the edge in my mind.

And this was my point on our disagreement of "easier". We have different goals and thus different priorities in our planning. It's probably because I was an economics major but I view the empire's economy as a whole over that of a single city. While you want to only have to worry about a small number of mana production centers, even though the cost are higher. The goals are indications of our play styles and thus it's unlikely we cannot convince the other to change their view point. Both view points are technically correct for their intended goals, the problem is we have different goals. So we've reached the point where we are starting to talk in circles about who's goal is better which I feel is a waste of time since it comes back to play style preferences.

 

[tonkatoy5]

I find that strangely enough elves might be the best gold production race depending on the map as they can build a transmutation facility on iron which gives a +6 to gold and its usually a pretty common resource i.e. in one game I had a city that had three of them and if memory serves was producing over 100 gold per turn.

 

[unmerged(495697)]

The first part is a complete statement on it's own and thus I quoted it directly. The second part is simply a supporting statement confirming that yes you even think they are better than the UD race which most view as the dominate mana producing race. The "By far" part would also indicate that it was a clear lead. In my latest example I was trying to show that even with UD pop requirements in place the Elves don't have an easier time.

I think the problem is in the sentence structure, though it's been a while since I took english so I'm not 100% sure. I don't really feel like getting into a grammatical debate and I know I've made plenty grammatical errors myself so we'll just chalk this one up to misunderstanding of intended text.

Even if the first part can stand alone as a complete sentence, you can't take it in a vacuum, if the next part makes the point clearer. Especially when it directly counters what you accuse me of. That's what is called taking things out of context.

 

[unmerged(489718)]

Another consideration regarding elves in the early game is that, if you give them the koatl training along with their tactition trait, they can hold their own against other races even in the early game. I had two archer units and one spearman unit take out two ogres and a fire elemental on turn 17. The point is that preferences can boil down to playing styles and gaming skills.

 

[korog]

I never stopped trying to find the strength in elves. So I made a theory and carried through with it, a thing called elf rush. Basicly its about making more elven archers and less settlers,
going for training grounds fast, so you have 4-5 upgraded elven archers by turn 14. With those you will have unstoppable rush against other player.

Here is video of it also (the experiment):
http://youtu.be/2CwuytNYNjM

Fcm13 learned from that and used the same tactics (elf rush) with other players with great success.

So elves are really strong in 1vs1, if they follow the same formula.

They were really strong in 2vs2 as well (army getting ready 53 minutes into video):
http://youtu.be/h-pO3opb--Q

Unfortunately, this strategy has no alternatives so far. It is the only way to play competative elves in multiplayer. No other building trees that can compete.

 

[unmerged(170187)]

Basicly its about making more elven archers and less settlers,
going for training grounds fast, so you have 4-5 upgraded elven archers by turn 14. With those you will have unstoppable rush against other player.
...
Fcm13 learned from that and used the same tactics (elf rush) with other players with great success.
...
Unfortunately, this strategy has no alternatives so far.

So you basically proved the Elves one really good unit is even more over powered than originally suspected. That's doesn't really make the rest of elf units balanced, which is what the thread is about. It's gonna get real boring playing elves with nothing but constant bowman rushes.

 

[unmerged(495697)]

The spearman is the problem. The elves only get two units to start off with, and one of them is really bad.

 

[UncleJJ]

I never stopped trying to find the strength in elves. So I made a theory and carried through with it, a thing called elf rush. Basicly its about making more elven archers and less settlers,
going for training grounds fast, so you have 4-5 upgraded elven archers by turn 14. With those you will have unstoppable rush against other player.

Here is video of it also (the experiment):
http://youtu.be/2CwuytNYNjM

Fcm13 learned from that and used the same tactics (elf rush) with other players with great success.

So elves are really strong in 1vs1, if they follow the same formula.

They were really strong in 2vs2 as well (army getting ready 53 minutes into video):
http://youtu.be/h-pO3opb--Q

Unfortunately, this strategy has no alternatives so far. It is the only way to play competative elves in multiplayer. No other building trees that can compete.

I watched part of your PvP games. Very interesting and the elf archers and their upgrades are very strong troops, both theoretically and as you demonstrated also in practice. The elf archers just need a few blockers and some scouts and they can be provided by mercenaries or captured cities rather than developing the elf ones.

I think that the koatl are a perfect compliment to them. The koatl spearmen are great early troops providing the toughness and blocking ability that a missile heavy army benefits from. Weaker against death immune troops but still adequate and very strong against anything else as the death damage bypasses resisatnces. Their ability to move across swamps and lava is also very useful in combination with ranged support from the elf bows.

There is also a case for the koatl archer (maybe just one) for its special movement and healing abilities as well as its higher damage (assuming death damage is useful). The koatl warlock is another excellent and relatively cost effective unit that compliments the elf bowmen. The warlock's stun ability is very valuable and the high elemental damage a useful alternative against undead troops like skeletons and skellie archers that are highly resistant to missile damage.

So for PvP and PvE games the Elf faction is well served by the 2 points for the koatl pick and there is no need for it to be an exclusively elf bow and bowmaster rush, although they obviously form the bulk of an early army.

I think there is also a case for using Goblin spears if you capture a Monster city early on (as you did in the first game). These can be upgraded to Veteran Goblin spears once the training ground is built in the capital to provide cost effective blockers that are very resistant to melee damage and can deal fair amounts of it themselves. The goblins have the advantage over warriors and skeleton warriors and even halberds in that they move 4 tiles, which is the same as elf bows and that means your whole attacking force probably moves faster then the opposition.

JJ

 

[korog]

So you basically proved the Elves one really good unit is even more over powered than originally suspected. That's doesn't really make the rest of elf units balanced, which is what the thread is about. It's gonna get real boring playing elves with nothing but constant bowman rushes.

Exactly my point. Other elf units are not worth building over archers.

 

[unmerged(170187)]

I think that the koatl are a perfect compliment to them. The koatl spearmen are great early troops providing the toughness and blocking ability that a missile heavy army benefits from.

Having to use another race or perk to make up for the elves short comings does not really do anything to balance their own units. You could just as easily use summoned units so as to not hinder bowmaster production in your cities.

There is also the fact that elves don't really need blocking units the way other races do. The stun ability insures this as enemy units never get to attack. Why would you want to take some melee units would you could instead be focusing on more units that help your stun lock setup?

With the 4-5 bowmaster Korog mentions he can get very quickly he just needs to have one attack each enemy unit and he's got 2 free turns to act. Should be able to finish off at least 2-3 units in that time. Then the enemy's remaining forces will likely retreat being damaged and outnumbered.

 

[unmerged(81995)]

Exactly my point. Other elf units are not worth building over archers.

In multiplayer maybe, can not judge. In single player Elven spearmasters (upgrade from the original spears) proved to be very strong against anything Their additional elemental attack is not matched by anything an upgraded fighter of another race can provide. It also ensures easy victories against e.g. Undead forces.
Eveybody complaining about the weak Elven spearman doe not use it correctly. It is effectively a scout for the Elven bowman that can block IF necessary. After it gained some experience even the basic version is much better suited to certain monster types than the Human counterpart as it already has some built in magic resistances. Elven armour and resistances more than make up for low hitpoints.
The real weakness of the Elves is their weak economy in food and gold. That is the sole reason I still prefer monster faction a tiny bit. And yes, the Koatls are a perfect match for the Elves.

Regards,
Thorsten

 

[JIntegrity]

Elven Spearmen remind me of how other games (Total War: Shogun 2, for example) handle cavalry. Expensive, and time consuming to produce, and have to be used in conjunction with other units to get any use out of them. These guys hit like a freight train, and with five movement they can seem to come out of no where to hit a high value, squishy targets. They are not rank-and-file troops. You want to appear out of no where, kill your target, and retreat to live to fight another day.

They're also good at dealing with spawns in your territory.

Excellent if you can get them to level six (unrealistic, I know) for Pathfinders.

Archers are still better though.

 

[unmerged(489718)]

With knowledge comes wisdom. The elves turn out to be wolves in sheep clothing. Thanks to Korog for proving it. I had a hunch the elves were stronger than some players claimed since two of my archer units and a spear unit easily took down two ogres and an earth elemental starting at turn 17. By the way, so what if the elven archers are the elven faction's goto unit. It fits all the fantasy lore does it not.

 

[unmerged(529415)]

Is any elvish unit able to be upgraded to the temple unit?

 

[unmerged(527231)]

With Korog strategy elves becomes a 'one unit' race.

 

[Modjo]

I never stopped trying to find the strength in elves. So I made a theory and carried through with it, a thing called elf rush. Basicly its about making more elven archers and less settlers,
going for training grounds fast, so you have 4-5 upgraded elven archers by turn 14. With those you will have unstoppable rush against other player.

Here is video of it also (the experiment):
http://youtu.be/2CwuytNYNjM

Fcm13 learned from that and used the same tactics (elf rush) with other players with great success.

So elves are really strong in 1vs1, if they follow the same formula.

They were really strong in 2vs2 as well (army getting ready 53 minutes into video):
http://youtu.be/h-pO3opb--Q

Unfortunately, this strategy has no alternatives so far. It is the only way to play competative elves in multiplayer. No other building trees that can compete.

Ha so it is you who invented the elfe rush I remember the first MP game where that hit me it was a 2v2 as far as I rcall... and I was on the wrong side of the argument as usual.

Seems like fcm13 has learned and perfected the style though as he really kicks ass with it now. Adding koatl village makes up for lack infantry and in fact koatl warlocks are unlockable even before iril bowmasters. I am not sure whether this a better way to go but it worked on our last game, although I had the worst starting position I ever had... There is still a question that remains unanswered though, if you're going for koatls warlock why bother with playing elves at all???
According to him "elves have a strong start" but I would argue that anybody has a strong start with favor of grumgog and koatl village. I would like to test that theory again with a better starting position

And btw this is the thread with the longest posts I have ever seen... Hard to jump in!

Modjo

 

[Darkwing88]

I never stopped trying to find the strength in elves. So I made a theory and carried through with it, a thing called elf rush. Basicly its about making more elven archers and less settlers,
going for training grounds fast, so you have 4-5 upgraded elven archers by turn 14. With those you will have unstoppable rush against other player.

Here is video of it also (the experiment):
http://youtu.be/2CwuytNYNjM

Fcm13 learned from that and used the same tactics (elf rush) with other players with great success.

So elves are really strong in 1vs1, if they follow the same formula.

They were really strong in 2vs2 as well (army getting ready 53 minutes into video):
http://youtu.be/h-pO3opb--Q

Unfortunately, this strategy has no alternatives so far. It is the only way to play competative elves in multiplayer. No other building trees that can compete.

How do you handle skeletons?