Electronics Concern - what is the point?

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DicRoNero

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Electronics and Industrial concerns both provide +15% speed bonus to respective research. And that is weird.

To put it in retrospective, previously Electronic Concern was slightly superior to Industrial one only if the player went into full-radars mode while omitting Synth research. Provided he skipped both - or researched both - then Industry was clearly ahead of Electronics, albeit not much and depending on ones ahead-of-time bonus/penalty sets, it was somewhat viable to consider both.

That included researching Encryption/Decription (kinda useful for combat bonus anyway).

Now as of 1.9.3 Cryptic techs are gone, AND radars are made cheaper to research all the way including the very last one, which is now merely 106 base days opposed to 212 it used to be. So it's no longer even close.

Some very simple maths would show that even the countries intending to ignore Synth research would need 3229 base days on Production, Construction, Industry and Excavation combined. On the other hand, the Electronics branch is now 1929 base days - and that is with the grossly generous inclusion of all three Fire Controls.

1929 vs 3229 - hmmm, what do I pick?..

If one also picks Synth and optimizes Fire Controls, the net difference in Research Time between the two Concern options is the Industrial one just saving you at least twice as much.
In order for Electronics to be comptetitive, one needs to completely ignore Excavation and cut short 2 other techs on top of that. How is that feasible?

How and why do these things even make it into the game? It's not like the considerations above include anything sophysticated - nope, just plain vital techs anyone needs 99% of the time.
I just bought LaR today and as far as I see the quality of the game (that obviously includes balance - we're here to make meaningful choices while playing) has dropped even further?

(safely inserting the last point here since I discovered that my cherished Spy Network and ongoing blueprint operation both gone poof the moment I joined their alliance - without even a notice - wtf? Why even the key selling point of the expansion is that bugged/unfriendly?)
 
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DicRoNero

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As I keep playing LaR, more stuff draws my attention. If stock (15%) concerns aren't already a cookie-cutter pick, what would one think of this one here?

96CIQu5.jpg

Norsk Hydro ain't any better: you get 5+10% for Synth (effectively same as the Industrial one provides), but for the rest of the Industry tab the bonus is merely 5%
 
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TheMeInTeam

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In principle you could switch between the two if doing some kind of focus-boosted tech rush for something specific, first taking electronics to get the research speed reducers to stack with that and then switching to research production boosters as you ramp up production of stuff you tech rushed. You're sacrificing a year or two of advisers like that, but if you're the air controller or something maybe it makes sense?

I haven't run the math for min/maxing that way but it MIGHT be possible to justify in niche scenarios. Otherwise yeah, this choice is obvious in normal play.
 
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DicRoNero

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Yeah, missed that one! 3229 vs 2474, then - if you go for the signals. Which imo is less of a no-brainer than full rack of industry.
 
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As others pointed out you can switch. If you are in a tech sharing league then you can also make all of those techs cheaper for your allies and visa versa. Why have everyone using the same boost if you can get opposite bonuses and then discount the tech for one another?
 
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Secret Master

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1929 vs 3229 - hmmm, what do I pick?..

You know what's funny? I never noticed this, because I don't think I've picked electronics concern more than 3 times over the years. Even if the research on offer was balanced in terms of days/discount, what's more important for 99% of countries: RADAR/computers, or IC/resource techs?

(Bonus points for the old Alf Landon "free Standard Oil" strategy as the US. Why bother with anything else in that old version of the game?)
 
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DicRoNero

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You know what's funny? I never noticed this, because I don't think I've picked electronics concern more than 3 times over the years. Even if the research on offer was balanced in terms of days/discount, what's more important for 99% of countries: RADAR/computers, or IC/resource techs?
The fun doesn't end up there. Now that we have spying, even minor countries can do this:

9EtWwS0.jpg


All it takes is some initial investent and luck/sacking-rehiring spies to get 3 safecracker dudes (of your own nation, it's just fine) to continiously milk Germany for that sweet +300% tech bonus with 1 or 2 ahead-of-time years on top (125% chance for it, yeah).

Which means you cycle through Industry like there's no tomorrow and build-up massive production, which accelerates faster than ever before. As Sweden in this current run I had 1940 Strategic Bombers line maxed out (100.1% efficiency) by 1942, which wasn't even my priority in any sense and I tanked no penalties.

Now I imagine a nation like USSR with its spirits (NOT methylated ones!) providing extra spies for even better cycle stealing, and given their massive industrial base to benefit from it I'm simply scared for the game balance.
 
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mursolini

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Electronics is not exclusive, since, usually, you invest first into industry, and much later into electronics, excluding research tech.
Then, there is value in advanced radar. So, IMO, it`s ok as is, for now.

There is similar issue with selection of Motorized/Infantry/Artillery designers, and theorists, while Air designers tend to be light aircraft in 99% of cases, and usually no PP will be spared on change till 1944 LF is researched.

I hope we will see a rework of laws/designers soon.
 

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In 1943 after research all the major Industry tech then you can switch advisor to Electronics. Electronic (computing and Fire Control ) is a key for Naval forces and can be worth research early if you are a major.
 
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SchwarzKatze

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This might be a solution:

image.png

+25% for electronics research speed versus +15% industry research speed would force players to make more of a decision.
Unlike Discord files that are public, Slack files are login-gated so we can't see it.
 

DicRoNero

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In 1943 after research all the major Industry tech then you can switch advisor to Electronics. Electronic (computing and Fire Control ) is a key for Naval forces and can be worth research early if you are a major.
Theoretically, if you swimm in PP, yes you can switch at some point, but usually by 1943 there's few left worth researching in Electronics anymore. And no, picking Industrial Concern [first] doesn't mean one skips or even delays all/any research in Electronics - they go in parallel just fine in case you need both. So we're likely to have like 1 computing and 1-3 radar techs left by then, and this Concern switch would compete for PP with Theorists/Designers or even Advisors.

In practice, unless I hijack one's faction to host tons of exiles, I never tend to have spare PP before the game effectively ends, and at that point why bother. It's like Jets.
 
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him_15

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Some of the concern or minister are simply not worth investment, no matter what the situation is, I hope the Dev could take a look into that.
 
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Zauberelefant

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It would already help if we had not to pay 150 PP for any advisor. You could solve it with cost: industry is potent, let it be 200 PP, but motorized Designer isn't, so there's 50 PP.
Could also allow to switch designers better. Air designers is a particular offender, because of how air war works. It's light aircraft Designer. And then nothing.
So, allowing several designers per slot would be nice, too! Of course you gotta pay for them and that's not trivial, but eventually you could have a broad range of designers at work.
Or, say you dispense the current system altogether, and Pick a Designer for every research for a one time cost in PP.
 
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Secret Master

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It would already help if we had not to pay 150 PP for any advisor. You could solve it with cost: industry is potent, let it be 200 PP, but motorized Designer isn't, so there's 50 PP.
Could also allow to switch designers better. Air designers is a particular offender, because of how air war works. It's light aircraft Designer. And then nothing.
So, allowing several designers per slot would be nice, too! Of course you gotta pay for them and that's not trivial, but eventually you could have a broad range of designers at work.
Or, say you dispense the current system altogether, and Pick a Designer for every research for a one time cost in PP.

One thing we modded in our MP game is how designers work.

The initial designer is always 150 PP. But each designer contains a 33% discount on the PP costs for designers of that type. So, swapping to a new designer costs only 100 PP.

We see a bit more swapping around than we used to. I am still on the fence in terms of costs and benefits, but I also like how we modded some of the more useless design companies. (I'm looking at you, pointless medium aircraft designer in vanilla.) It's a more dynamic system to be sure.
 
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Zauberelefant

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One thing we modded in our MP game is how designers work.

The initial designer is always 150 PP. But each designer contains a 33% discount on the PP costs for designers of that type. So, swapping to a new designer costs only 100 PP.

We see a bit more swapping around than we used to. I am still on the fence in terms of costs and benefits, but I also like how we modded some of the more useless design companies. (I'm looking at you, pointless medium aircraft designer in vanilla.) It's a more dynamic system to be sure.
Your Mod is strictly private, iirc?
 

Secret Master

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Your Mod is strictly private, iirc?

Nah. It's on Steam:


But it's not really suitable for SP, because the AI doesn't deal well with the weather based attrition (AI Germany really doesn't grasp that it shouldn't attack through mud) and some other things.

But feel free to play it and see if you like the ideas in it. Some things might not make sense unless you ask us the reasons for it. And the mod is meant to be played with our house rules (and rules set at the beginning of the game).
 
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The Improved Historical MP mod mentioned above addresses the electronics research team's bonus by increasing the research bonus to +25%:

1597833297059.png
 
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