When Marx said Dictatorship of the Proletariat, he didn't mean rule by one party, or rule by one man, but rule by the workers. IE a Democracy were only workers may hold power, so will Proletariat Dictatorships have elections in Victoria 2?
Elections in Proletariat Dictorships?
- Thread starter Lenin Cat
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Well Lenin, Lenin had some different ideas.
In reality, the rule of the proletariat was a dictatorship. Marx was never much of a practic man, his strenghts were in the theories And theories don't always survive the meeting of real life...
In reality, the rule of the proletariat was a dictatorship. Marx was never much of a practic man, his strenghts were in the theories And theories don't always survive the meeting of real life...
Sorry. The power belongs to the proletariat and communist party is the vanguard of the people. Thus only ruling party can be communist and because voting in Vicky is only about parties, those elections would be most useless.
Well Lenin, Lenin had some different ideas.
I will quote trotsky, 2nd only to lenin in the revolution. Socialism needs Democracy like the body needs oxygen - Leon Trotsky.
Also that is not entirely true, in the first soviet elections Left SR's and Mensheviks were elected to the Executive Communitee.
I don't want to see this get bogged down in an ideological debate.
In game terms, those elections would only take place within the party so wouldn't have any effect, as in Vicky elections are synomomous with party elections.
In game terms, those elections would only take place within the party so wouldn't have any effect, as in Vicky elections are synomomous with party elections.
OK, I would try to sum up all arguments
-It was never long-term policy in any communist country I know of, just a short-term provisional arrangement.
-You can't have any form of radical government or dictatorship with free elections. That is just pure utopia. As well as existence of any kind legal oposition.
-Paradox chosen system makes sense as balanced model and is fun to play
-This is just a game and not simulation of what-ifs. If we go through that way we can end up arguing that you should be able to build rocket interceptors because both plane and rocket already existed.
-It was never long-term policy in any communist country I know of, just a short-term provisional arrangement.
-You can't have any form of radical government or dictatorship with free elections. That is just pure utopia. As well as existence of any kind legal oposition.
-Paradox chosen system makes sense as balanced model and is fun to play
-This is just a game and not simulation of what-ifs. If we go through that way we can end up arguing that you should be able to build rocket interceptors because both plane and rocket already existed.
There are plenty of elections in State "Socialist" countries. Just the other day Kim Jong Il was reelected
This could be represented by having Liberals and such in the Upper House, assuming the Upper House is structured in such a way that this is possible.
It would make more sense than having an open election for the Lower House in a country run by a proletarian dictatorship.
There are plenty of elections in State "Socialist" countries. Just the other day Kim Jong Il was reelected
HUGE diff. In the soviet union you could vote "rejected" on the list, in NK you have aye and nothing else.
To avoid a flame war, ill end my argument with this, why is it impossible? Nepal is currently drafting a constitution that would do this.
End as my closing statement I shall choose: When they make it reality and it will work for at least three election periods, we can talk about it again.
To put it simple: The in-game government "Proletarian Dictatorship" represents the government type which developed in Russia after 1917. Whether or not there could have been a democratic proletarian dictatorship IRL is not of relevance here - such a hypotetical government would not be represented by the "Proletarian Dictatorship" in-game. It should, however, be possible to maintain a socialist democracy in Victoria.
^This.
If you want Social Democracy, then just take a Democracy, have a socialist party as the ruling party and act list a socialist would.
It should even be possible to ban any non-socialist party and have a genuine "democratic socialism" government - which I would find pretty cool personally (even if your nation most likely only has one socialist and one communist party). Now THAT would probably have to be a Con-Mon, if we are to assume governments work like they did in vic1, which would prolly be pushing the limit of your suspention of disbelief, but still...
How would it be possible to have a communist party running a social democracy?
A communist party could rule in any form of government, that is the point.
Paradox have been very clear in that while the names they have for different governments and ideologies are inspired by actual historical names, the actual representations and effects in-game are based more on game balance and abstractions. Communists running a democracy would most probably be possible in game, that is the point. (Though I'm not sure, as the distinction between socialist and communist in Vic1 was that the latter was non-democratic)
IF Forced Consitutional Reforms are Gone
as the decision system allows them to be gone, Communist parties wont automatically enforce a dicatorship, likewise with Fascists and Re-actionaries.
And Dictatorships who allow elections for the Parliament wont automatically stop being Dictatorships
And so IF we can Assume that common sense will be involved in the process, then Yes Proletariat Dictatorships will allow Elections.
And if your looking for an example of democratic soviet government, the example isnt in russia, but Germany with the luxembourgists. [possibly spelt differently, german not french i can never remember which is which.]
as the decision system allows them to be gone, Communist parties wont automatically enforce a dicatorship, likewise with Fascists and Re-actionaries.
And Dictatorships who allow elections for the Parliament wont automatically stop being Dictatorships
And so IF we can Assume that common sense will be involved in the process, then Yes Proletariat Dictatorships will allow Elections.
And if your looking for an example of democratic soviet government, the example isnt in russia, but Germany with the luxembourgists. [possibly spelt differently, german not french i can never remember which is which.]