Eidgenossenschaft (Switzerland rework)

[TheOnlyChris]

Hello people. Sorry about the massive post. Hopefully people will read it anyways

I’d like to talk a little bit about Switzerland, and the issues with the way it is modelled in EU4.

First of all, the name itself. There was no such thing as Switzerland until the 16th century, and even then only colloquially. The name “Old Swiss Confederacy” has only been given to it post hoc. At the time, It was generally known as the Eidgenossenschaft (Confederation) or as the Bund der Acht Orte (Alliance of the Eight Places).

Even if we accept that Switzerland is just another name for the Confederation, the starting situation of Switzerland still doesn’t make sense, as neither St Gallen nor Graubünden were part of the of the confederation. Even Zurich was at war with the rest of the confederation in 1444 and had been booted out (but I’d be in favour of ignoring that detail for simplicity).

Finally, and most significantly for gameplay, is the fact that the Confederation was not seen, nor did it act, as a single sovereign state, but rather a coalition of independent states. Several of these (maybe all? I’m not sure) enjoyed Imperial Immediacy, some as free cities, and at the Congress of Vienna of 1815, each Canton had its own delegation as an independent nation.

As such, I propose modelling Switzerland as a collection of one province minors, with a new Confederation mechanic comparable to the trade league or tributary systems. Not only would this be more realistic and give Switzerland and the surrounding area a little bit of unique flavour, but it would also allow Switzerland to punch significantly above their weight militarily, as they did historically (the Confederation should be militarily strong enough to go toe to toe with Austria in the early game). It would also allow for far more potential for Swiss mercenaries all over the place using the condotierre system.

Such a system could also be used to better model the historical significance of the Confederacy in the region. The Confederacy almost singlehandedly defeated Burgundy and Savoy in 1476 and Austria and the Swabian league in 1499. In the current state of the game, there is absolutely no way for early game Switzerland to stand up to either of these nations without some significant player intervention. However, the combined force limit, manpower, and generals of several one province minors, along with the bonuses specified below, could be enough to make it an interesting fight.

The Confederation mechanic could also be used as a trigger for the Swabian war, the representation of which is conspicuously absent from the current game. Clicking the Institute Reichsregiment button as the HR Emperor could have the added effect of declaring war on the Confederation, with only allies inside of the HRE being called in. If the confederation wins, it leaves the HRE (whilst it didn’t do this formally, this was de facto the case).

Membership of the confederation would of course be limited to one province minors. Members would be unable to form alliances with any nation outside the Confederation, but would be able to infight, as they did historically. In order to properly represent the reputation of the Swiss mercenaries, and the ability of the Confederation to take on much more powerful nations, I would suggest that membership comes with a substantial discipline and/or morale bonus (2.5% and 1.0 for example?). The substantial flat morale bonus would make the Swiss soldiers virtually invincible early game, as was their reputation in the 15th century, but trail off in significance as the game goes on.

Expansion of membership would happen in one of two ways. The first is militarily. Members of the coalition would still be able to declare wars against their neighbours as normal. Any provinces annexed in such a war would be automatically released as new one province minor members of the Confederation (this mirrors how most of the expansion of the Confederation happened). Whilst many of the provinces in the area will already have suitable tags in them, it should be possible to create new ones if needed by using the same functionality as exists for client states. The second way is for any one province minor adjacent to the confederation to have a decision to join the Confederation (as Graubünden effectively did). The AI would only take this decision if it has a negative relationship with the HR emperor Hopefully that will usually prevent Ravensburg for joining, but make Graubünden likely to join at some point (an event could help with this).

I would hope that the overall effect of this would be for Switzerland to be an interesting local power in the early game, with some unique flavour to them, but as they grow larger and the reformation kicks in, they will start infighting between internal rivals, instead of continually expanding. By late game, larger nations will start to completely dwarf the power of the Confederation, and it will probably eventually be annexed by a neighbour (and maybe released as a single Helvetic Republic client state? There could be an event for that).

Let me know what you think about this idea. I think it would be an interesting addition to the game, as well as providing some added realism to the region. If any paradox devs are interested in this concept, I would be willing to do some additional research and put together some national ideas for each the cantons. I could also suggest a couple of interesting events. Also, please let me know if you think some things should be different, I’d be happy to hear some other ideas.

 

[Canute VII]

This seems to be a very cool idea.

Some of the OPMs could be admin republics, some peasant republics (like Dithmarschen).

When I read "Confederation", first thing I thought of was "tribal federation". I think this concept would be fitting bacause of "federal authority" and how the OPMs could change leadership of the federation in between them. However, the confederation should consume a dip relation slot as with trade leagues and members would leave the confederation if they grow larger than one province. The more members the confederation has got, the more each member could receive extra republican tradition.

 

[Undead Martyr]

I would like for this not to be limited solely to OPMs, necessarily, as some cantons might have more than one province (especially with mods), and I generally don't like hardcoded limitations. Perhaps the maximum provinces can be set in defines, and/or going over incurs a diplomatic penalty, or they are only able to have a core on their capital province?

I would also like to see more league/confederation style mechanics in game, as there were quite a few such events in the HRE and surrounding territory (Italy, the Hansa, the Swabian League....)

 

[TheOnlyChris]

This seems to be a very cool idea.

Some of the OPMs could be admin republics, some peasant republics (like Dithmarschen).

When I read "Confederation", first thing I thought of was "tribal federation". I think this concept would be fitting bacause of "federal authority" and how the OPMs could change leadership of the federation in between them. However, the confederation should consume a dip relation slot as with trade leagues and members would leave the confederation if they grow larger than one province. The more members the confederation has got, the more each member could receive extra republican tradition.

I would like for this not to be limited solely to OPMs, necessarily, as some cantons might have more than one province (especially with mods), and I generally don't like hardcoded limitations. Perhaps the maximum provinces can be set in defines, and/or going over incurs a diplomatic penalty, or they are only able to have a core on their capital province?

I would also like to see more league/confederation style mechanics in game, as there were quite a few such events in the HRE and surrounding territory (Italy, the Hansa, the Swabian League....)

Yeah, I actually fist came up with this idea back in the day when tribal federations came out. So maybe a more generic European federation mechanic might be better. But I have been reading the dev diaries and watching the blog, and this idea is perhaps more in line with their "unique experience" concept. And the Swabian league can be perfectly well modeled as Austria having a couple of allies in the region, as it never really did very much beyond that. So I don't really think it needs its own federation.

Having said that, a single federation mechanic that effectively models all of the Confederation, the Swabian League, the Hansa, the religious leagues, and the various smaller leagues in and around the HRE would be glorious. Just hard to design.

 

[rho]

This doesn't seem like it would be very fun to play as. Not allowed to grow beyond one province? Extremely limited diplomatic options? No thank you. For other similar entities like the HRE or Japan, there are either no or minimal restrictions on growth, and there is also a mechanic whereby the player can become the overall leader of their group, commanding and then unifying it.

Playing as a Swiss Canton, what would the overall goal be? You could go to war, sure, but to what purpose? Add a few new provinces to the Confederation? Except that they probably hate you because you've just been at war with them and would want to ally with your rivals within the Confederation. And why would I want to have internal rivals in the first place? I can't take their province, I can't force them to join the Confederation, I can't really do anything to them other than humiliate them and take their money. It seems as if the best way to be successful as a Swiss canton would be to leave the Confederation as soon as possible so as not to be subject to restrictions on growth, which really isn't very compelling.

 

[Maghrebian]

Maybe let the members grow inside the confederation (as they are able to infight), and eventually, if one controls all others, introduce a "form Switzerland" decision. To make it a bit balanced, so that the cantons won't just disappear in 20 years, make conquering generate more AE inside the Confederation (only for the members).

 

[Canute VII]

Maybe let the members grow inside the confederation (as they are able to infight), and eventually, if one controls all others, introduce a "form Switzerland" decision. To make it a bit balanced, so that the cantons won't just disappear in 20 years, make conquering generate more AE inside the Confederation (only for the members).

Yes, agreed. An option to "form (a more centralized) Switzerland" either militarily or diplomatically would be nice (though, if that would be historically plausible, I'm not to judge).

 

[TheOnlyChris]

This doesn't seem like it would be very fun to play as. Not allowed to grow beyond one province? Extremely limited diplomatic options? No thank you. For other similar entities like the HRE or Japan, there are either no or minimal restrictions on growth, and there is also a mechanic whereby the player can become the overall leader of their group, commanding and then unifying it.

Playing as a Swiss Canton, what would the overall goal be? You could go to war, sure, but to what purpose? Add a few new provinces to the Confederation? Except that they probably hate you because you've just been at war with them and would want to ally with your rivals within the Confederation. And why would I want to have internal rivals in the first place? I can't take their province, I can't force them to join the Confederation, I can't really do anything to them other than humiliate them and take their money. It seems as if the best way to be successful as a Swiss canton would be to leave the Confederation as soon as possible so as not to be subject to restrictions on growth, which really isn't very compelling.

Grow tall and vassalise people. The major cantons were all free cities after all. Also, some of the cantons, especially Bern and Zurich, did historically try to extend their influence to the surrounding countryside and smaller neighbouring cities. I said nothing about dissalowing vassals, either inside or outside the confederation. But yes, I do think that members should have to leave the Confederation to grow beyond 1 province. The coalition was inherently based around city states, bisphorics, and small local councils. A larger nation would be completely out of place.

Maybe let the members grow inside the confederation (as they are able to infight), and eventually, if one controls all others, introduce a "form Switzerland" decision. To make it a bit balanced, so that the cantons won't just disappear in 20 years, make conquering generate more AE inside the Confederation (only for the members).

Yes, agreed. An option to "form (a more centralized) Switzerland" either militarily or diplomatically would be nice (though, if that would be historically plausible, I'm not to judge).

I don't really like the form Switzerland idea. There was no cultural notion of a "Switzerland" beyond the states that happened to be part of the Confederation. If, for example, Zurich had managed to fully subjugate Luzern and Bern, they wouldn't have called themselves Switzerland, they would have just been Zurich and its dependencies. Or maybe Upper Germany, as the term "Confederation of Upper Germany" did exist. A form Switzerland decision would just feel to me like a hamfisted way to force a Switzerland to appear late game.

The one thing I would consider would be for Swiss cores to appear on any province that joins the Confederation, such that if/when they get conquered, Switzerland can be released as a vassal or break away as a new nation. That would seem reasonable to me.

EDIT: On second thought, I think a form Switzerland decision would be good. But only with the confederation not existing being a prerequisite. Given the extent to which the Confederation was defined by the relentless independantism of its cantons, it really should be very difficult to do.

 

[rho]

Grow tall and vassalise people. The major cantons were all free cities after all. Also, some of the cantons, especially Bern and Zurich, did historically try to extend their influence to the surrounding countryside and smaller neighbouring cities. I said nothing about dissalowing vassals, either inside or outside the confederation. But yes, I do think that members should have to leave the Confederation to grow beyond 1 province. The coalition was inherently based around city states, bisphorics, and small local councils. A larger nation would be completely out of place.

There's only so much growing tall you can do with only one province. It doesn't take long before developing your province becomes prohibitively expensive, and you're paying more per point of development than it would cost to core a 30 development province. As for vassals, there are basically two ways that can go. The first would be to reach the point where your vassals are stronger than you and you can't grow them any further or add any new ones because of liberty desire. The second would be to take one vassal and continually grow it, keeping its liberty desire down by regularly developing it and feeding it more and more provinces and never being able to stop feeding it because if you stop then it would become rebellious. In the first instance you reach the "there is literally nothing for me to do" situation rather quickly. In the second instance, you end up with the ludicrously implausible and ahistorical situation you were trying to avoid. Either way, it isn't a good outcome.

EU4 is a historical game. And the "historical" part of that is important, but so is the "game" part. There are a lot of outcomes that were completely historically implausible but can still happen in game. In game, the Byzantine remnant can defeat the Ottomans and then recreate the old borders of the Roman Empire. In the game, Ryukyu can convert to Coptic and then conquer the entire world. And so on. Having Zurich gain a second province seems positively tame by comparison.

For something like this, I think that the best compromise would be to try to come up with something that didn't happen but at least plausibly could have done. A good comparison is the ability in game to unite the HRE. This didn't happen historically, for a lot of reasons, but it's not too hard to imagine that maybe it could have done. Maybe there could have been a situation where a very strong Emperor could have exerted enough authority that the Empire became more and more integrated and eventually just a single state. There wasn't, but maybe there could have been.

Would it be possible to do something comparable with Switzerland? You say that some of the cantons tried to extend their influence into surrounding areas. What if they were more successful in that? Is it possible (not likely, just possible) that the Confederation could have morphed over time from a union among equals to a grouping in which one canton came to ascendancy and wielded more and more power?

For instance, what if you were allowed to grow, but if you did then the other cantons would have a CB against you to make you release your extra provinces as new cantons? And then if you are able to dominate the Confederation by having over two thirds of the Confederation's development belong to you or your vassal cantons, then you get to make a decision to federalise, absorbing the other cantons and forming Switzerland?

That's just a quickly brainstormed idea and you -- or someone else more familiar with Swiss history -- could probably come up with something better, but it gets across the general feeling of the sort of thing I'm suggesting. I like the general idea of having the flavour of the independent cantons of the Confederation, but I also think that there needs to be a nod to gameplay mechanics as well.

 

[TheOnlyChris]

Would it be possible to do something comparable with Switzerland? You say that some of the cantons tried to extend their influence into surrounding areas. What if they were more successful in that? Is it possible (not likely, just possible) that the Confederation could have morphed over time from a union among equals to a grouping in which one canton came to ascendancy and wielded more and more power?

For instance, what if you were allowed to grow, but if you did then the other cantons would have a CB against you to make you release your extra provinces as new cantons? And then if you are able to dominate the Confederation by having over two thirds of the Confederation's development belong to you or your vassal cantons, then you get to make a decision to federalise, absorbing the other cantons and forming Switzerland?

Well, yes, but if one canton had become dominant, they would have either have been kicked out the coalition or the coalition would have ceased to exist. This is what effectively happened in 1440 when Zurich annexed Toggenburg. The rest of the confederation kicked it out and declared war on it. A single canton coming to dominate the confederation from the inside seems implausible to me, but you could easily just leave and try to expand as a standard HRE free city does. You would just be playing as Zurich, Bern, etcetera, rather than as "Switzerland". The Coalition would still generally be an interesting feature of the region, but a deliberate part of my design is that it's disproportionately powerful, but wouldn't tend to grow very much.

Although, as I said, for those who really really want to conquer Europe as "Switzerland", I think a decision to form it would be plausible, just not until the Confederation has fallen apart.

Also, I for one would have huge amounts of fun trying to keep expanding the Coaltion while managing its internal struggles. It would be hard as nails, but interesting.


As for your historical game comments, I agree with you in principle. But a realistic outcome should at least be possible, preferably even likely. As it stands, nothing like a plausible outcome is in any way possible within EU4, which I find very dissatisfying. If you play as Switzerland in EU4, you might as well be playing a fantasy game rather than a history game as there is nothing historical there.