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badbadbad22

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Egypt is uncivilized nation ???

how ??

Egypt conquered syria .
Palestine
Iraq
Ankara and Edna
The Arabian Peninsula

and was have an 300 thousand Soldier

and about 20 big ship every ship have 100 cannon

Egypt was the biggest country of producing cotton

Egypt Defeated Ottoman Empire

and this is an article talks about Egypt from 1805 to 1841 Under the rule
Muhammad Ali of Egypt

and Transvaal is an civilized nation how ???????

Egypt is civilized nation please change it and thanks
 

OmnipotentChocolateMilk

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Civilised doesn't mean it's good at conquering and killing people. Civilised means it has modern institutions of education, science, banking, economic understanding, professional military, modern gun and ship designs and an ability to mass produce rather than import. There should also be a reform in government so it isn't following a feudal system of governance. Unless you have sources that confirm Egypt had all of those above then sure, I'll join you in a complaint in saying Egypt should be a civilised nation. But having a massive army, massive ships, defeating a dying empire and only conquering part of the regions you named doesn't mean Egypt should be civilised.

To be honest, I think the Qing Empire actually qualifies for more of the prerequisites to be civilised than any other uncivilised nation but apparently they are in the dark ages of 0% westernisation. Qing had bigger of ANYTHING Egypt had and had institutions in place thousands of years before any Western nations even had the idea of 'civilisation' like a system of governance based on meritocracy, a focus on education (why does Qing start with 3% literacy rate? Although there is no real, reliable source for the literacy rate in China: I guarantee it'll be higher than 3% due to the culture of a focus of education, everyone and their mother wanting 1 out of 8 sons to be educated properly and try for the Civil Service Exams, public schooling and universities were prevalent throughout China since the Song Dynasty in 1000 CE, the abundance of graduated civil servants during the Qing), banking and modern tax collection and a professional military as well as the biggest manufacturing base in the world until 2 Opium Wars, Qing should start at least higher than 0% Westernised.

Sources:
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/college/coll-china-education-001.html
http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0014/001461/146108e.pdf
 

MannheimCouncil

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It also depends a lot on what the Great Powers regarded as civilised and Egypt was mainly regarded as the Ottoman's backwater and a place where to stage your military campaigns (see Napoleon). The only civilized nation that would complain about you meddling with them and the Ottomans mainly qualify as civilized by tradition.

So basically, at the beginning of the Grand Campaign the countries that count as civilized are mainly those that have white people ruling. All the others have to prove they're good enough first. The Ottomans are the only ones to get a pass on that, because they are were traditionally the scourge of Europe and quite well integrated.

A case could be made for Egypt being civilized as they were more or less part of the Ottoman Empire, but to model the Oriental Crisis they do have to be a satellite and to give the Ottomans a chance to defeat them they basically have to be uncivilized. But as OmnipotentChocolateMilk said the Qing Empire was probably more civilized than Egypt and it's still uncivilized in the game. If I were to model this, I'd have both of them start around 50% and have them lose westernisation progress when the lose their respective event chains.

Now, the Boer republics could do with being uncivilized. The problem here is that they certainly had the theoretical background and the trade connections to Europe that argue for them being civilized, even if they weren't big on institutions (government, army etc.).

Ideally, there would be a four-tier model to represent the division between European and American countries, old Asian powers and Middle Eastern powers and organised tribal societies in Africa, America and the Middle East and the uncolonised areas that just need enough government investment and appropriate technologies to be colonised.
 

Beastro

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Egypt is uncivilized nation ???


and this is an article talks about Egypt from 1805 to 1841 Under the rule
Muhammad Ali of Egypt

Within game they would be at best partially-Westernized and along that way more than most other non-Western nations.


Because they aren't Western and to reflect the stylistic tropes of the game Western people's get more tech and reforms than other powers to reflect their dominance of the era in game terms.

Egypt conquered syria .
Palestine
Iraq
Ankara and Edna
The Arabian Peninsula

and was have an 300 thousand Soldier

and about 20 big ship every ship have 100 cannon

Egypt was the biggest country of producing cotton

Egypt Defeated Ottoman Empire

Yes, and how can that not be reflected in game with Egypt being an uncivilized nation given a better ability to raise a military if the player chooses to assign more Foci into increasing the nations number of soldiers?

Here's a hint: All of it can be and I've done much the same playing Japan in games as I worked to Westernize that could easily be written in a history as a powerful and talented Emperor much like Muhammad Ali taking over instead of Meiji and pushing his country in an almost prophetic way given what he knew to do that made them strong quickly and to check the threat of encouraging Western powers in a way that makes Japans historical reforms pale in comparison.

and Transvaal is an civilized nation how ???????

Transvaal, like all Afrikaner nations is made up of Westerners and so mechanically are civilized as a result, just as South America is and the rest of the peripheral West outside of Europe and North America. We could argue all day about this being "accurate" but much of this game has little to do with accuracy, instead it's to create enough of a sense of the era it reflects so to give the player a taste of that era and them enjoy experiencing the 1800s in a 21st Century game.

In your case you could play Egypt and full in Muhammud Ali's boots as a great reformer and simulate verisimilitude of if his reign had been followed by further brilliance.

Egypt is civilized nation please change it and thanks

Why?

Simply because it offends your 16 year old nationalistic sensibilities you want Paradox to change the entire game for everyone? If that was applied for everyone ticked at the state of their nation, like that of Japan, China and the rest of Far East that was working hard to modernized as well) there wouldn't be a single uncivilized nation in this game nor would the game be set in the Victorian Era any longer, but be some odd amalgam of it and the modern era.

Here's a question: How much have you played this game? Have you even played it yet?

Here's another question: WTF should they change an entire faction simply because one player doesn't like they way that faction is in the game?

Here's another question: If this bothers you so much, mod it out like we all do with things that annoy us enough and tailor the game to the way you want it, like how I always rename Istanbul to Constantinople. Use the console and hasten Egypt's modernization to make it civilized before you even leave the first day of the new game.

You do that by hitting the ` button, typing in debug alwaysreform to get rid of the cooldown time, then putting in researchpoints 25000 (which is the max you can have), then click away on those civilizinb reformed and type in the researchpoint command whenever you run out until you're 100% Westernized.

This bugs you, a lot about this game bugs people, it is why this games ability to be modded is so beloved, as are all Pdox games. Please listen to the advice given in the replies and recognize that none of it, mine included, isn't meant to thumb our thumb at you, but to get you to realize what you can do on your own to change it, to let you know that you aren't the first person to be in this position and to help you go through everything every new Pdox player goes through.

Now, the Boer republics could do with being uncivilized. The problem here is that they certainly had the theoretical background and the trade connections to Europe that argue for them being civilized, even if they weren't big on institutions (government, army etc.).

The issue is that they aren't that much of a stones throw from the way the Western nations in North and South America were like, and like them, once they settled down and started building nations they quickly developed typical Western frontier nations that looked little different than your average US state west of the Mississippi.

Had the Afrikaners had the ability to settle down for prolonged periods of time in peace they would have developed a more coherent national history much like the settling of any frontier the West was on, but being on the edge of the British Empire in a strategically sensitive region to the Empire meant they never had peace and were constantly pushed further and further away from the Cape until there was no where else to go.
 
Last edited:

Mad King James

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I agree with the OP, Egypt aggressively westernized beginning in 1805 and by 1823 had reformed their military and industry to western standards. The first modern factories in Egypt were constructed in 1819. Egypt kicked the Ottoman's butt in 1839.

Egypt being uncivilized in 1836 I feel like the devs made it that way to avoid Egypt colonizing everything in the 1870s, since it was too hard to fix it so those colonies would all get gobbled up by Europeans instead. This wasn't the only country that was similarly sacrificed on the altar of convenience and outcomes.

Egypt as a westernized nation but with quite low literacy (which is historical) where they can't quite make it to getting all the liferating techs by the 1870s would have solved the problem, but the Vicky 2 devs are quite eurocentric and I don't think they really cared that it wasn't completely historical, I mean Ethiopia should be like 4 different countries in this time period and noone cared about that either.
 
Last edited:

Nyrael

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I can say one thing though: the term "civilized" is very much irksome. I do hope Vic3 uses another term, like Modernized.
 

Sebastian Jarl

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I can say one thing though: the term "civilized" is very much irksome. I do hope Vic3 uses another term, like Modernized.

I hope not, civilised is the proper term to use in the age. (See e.g. article 38 of the charter of the International Court of Justice, which states that one of the sources of international law is legal principles in common in civilised nations. Provision based on the earlier one in the PCA from 1920.)

Now, as all the posts above has pointed out, civilised/uncivilised in the game is not so much about power, or even progress, as it is about whether or not the international system set up in Europe (think Westphalian sovereignty) recognises the state in question as an equal participant in the world. Hopefully Vic 3 can have a tool-tip that explains this in a way that avoids upsetting modern sensibilities, rather than changing the name to something less flavourful and period-appropriate.

Also, on the basis that the status should be about how nations are(/were) treated, I'm inclined think it is more accurate to make the Ottoman Empire uncivilised than it is to make Egypt civilised, keeping in mind how the great power acted towards them. Both nations should clearly have quite a lot of progress towards being civilised however.

(And on a bit of a tangent, I believe great power status shouldn't be related to civilised/uncivilised. At gamestart, both OE and China had very real systems of giving imperial recognition to far-flung nations. This should be recognised by spheres or influence, but obviously shouldn't be very long-lasting given how swiftly it was ignored. I think a decent representation is for both to be uncivilised great powers, with enough prestige to last until industrialisation really kicks in or they lose a couple of wars.)
 

Andrelvis

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Egypt is uncivilized nation ???

Being "civilized" in the game seems to mean being integrated into the international system based in Europe. Basically, the "uncivilized" adjective is used there as an illustration of what Europeans would think about the country, rather than being an objective description.
 

Beastro

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I mean Ethiopia should be like 4 different countries in this time period and noone cared about that either.

Only if you play Victoria 2 vanilla and unmodded, which you should never do.

I play with the revival of Concert of Europe which has fractured Ethiopia as one of it's many features.

I can say one thing though: the term "civilized" is very much irksome. I do hope Vic3 uses another term, like Modernized.

In other words trade a 19th Century term for a late 20th/21st Century one that's more acceptable to modern sensibilities.

Like I said, it's there for flavour and to do so while fitting into the mechanics of the game (and this sort of reaction is sadly why things like the Darklands manual was laced with this feel of timid apologizing and desperate explaining that the game was made to evoke the spirit of what time it was set in and not a work of a 20th Century German nationalistic wank agenda).
 

Iron Chariots

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Egypt is uncivilized in Victoria 2 for the same reason that people of other religions are infidels in Crusader Kings 2. It reflects the zeitgeist of the game's setting.
 

Prince Ire

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It also depends a lot on what the Great Powers regarded as civilised and Egypt was mainly regarded as the Ottoman's backwater and a place where to stage your military campaigns (see Napoleon). The only civilized nation that would complain about you meddling with them and the Ottomans mainly qualify as civilized by tradition.

So basically, at the beginning of the Grand Campaign the countries that count as civilized are mainly those that have white people ruling. All the others have to prove they're good enough first. The Ottomans are the only ones to get a pass on that, because they are were traditionally the scourge of Europe and quite well integrated.

A case could be made for Egypt being civilized as they were more or less part of the Ottoman Empire, but to model the Oriental Crisis they do have to be a satellite and to give the Ottomans a chance to defeat them they basically have to be uncivilized. But as OmnipotentChocolateMilk said the Qing Empire was probably more civilized than Egypt and it's still uncivilized in the game. If I were to model this, I'd have both of them start around 50% and have them lose westernisation progress when the lose their respective event chains.

Now, the Boer republics could do with being uncivilized. The problem here is that they certainly had the theoretical background and the trade connections to Europe that argue for them being civilized, even if they weren't big on institutions (government, army etc.).

Ideally, there would be a four-tier model to represent the division between European and American countries, old Asian powers and Middle Eastern powers and organised tribal societies in Africa, America and the Middle East and the uncolonised areas that just need enough government investment and appropriate technologies to be colonised.
As a note, Egypt's not an Ottoman satellite in the base game.
 

klingonadmiral

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A case could be made for Egypt being civilized as they were more or less part of the Ottoman Empire, but to model the Oriental Crisis they do have to be a satellite and to give the Ottomans a chance to defeat them they basically have to be uncivilized. But as OmnipotentChocolateMilk said the Qing Empire was probably more civilized than Egypt and it's still uncivilized in the game. If I were to model this, I'd have both of them start around 50% and have them lose westernisation progress when the lose their respective event chains.

In HPM, Egypt starts at 30% westernization which is basically the highest westernization excluding Japan of all uncivs. If they lose the Oriental Crisis though, they go back to 0% westernization.