Egalitarian still the best military snowball ethic?

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elitesix

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Previous to 1.5/Utopia, fanstic individualist ethos basically let you conquer races via cede planet and ignore the reduced "recently conquered" modifier.

In 1.5/Utopia, basic egalitarians get the utopian abundance living standard, which reduces the overall -25 recently conquered penalty to -5, at minimal mineral cost since you only use the increased living standard until the recently conquered penalty goes away.

I've tried out other ethos - including xenophobe and authoritarian - but it seems like nothing compares to the ease of setting newly conquered races to utopian abundance and then basically playing as if nothing happened. Is there something I'm missing?
 

Drowe

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There are two ways you can handle it, enslave the xenos so happiness doesn't matter, or you can use social welfare instead, which is cheaper, this is available to everyone and gives half the bonus but only costs 50% more instead of 100% more. If you have the resources and are content to wait it out, you can give them chemical bliss instead, but this would hurt their productivity a lot.
 

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You can also just make defense armies on the newly conquered planets. It takes a bit for the unrest to kick in, more than enough time to build the armies.

The Harmony traditions also really help. Last game with Spiritualist, Harmony and the skill of the sector governor I barely had any unrest at all after a conquest.
 

Madzai

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Can you enslave the whole xeno species as Authoritarian? Or this is only for Xenophobes?
Also, don't forget that if you conquer any planets that have slaves as Eglaritarian, the former slaves'll love you instead of "recently conquered"?
 

Starisc

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Well, in my latest fanatical purifuer playthrough I had no problems at all with conquered pops. :p

It was ok once I figured out to station armies at those planets, when they revolt because of the deathcamp purge. Problem: You cannot build defensive armies and station them on those pesky purge planets, so I used attack armies (is there a way?)

Better: cleanse planet wargoals and take only planets where master race can live. Then resettle a few master race pops, build a few def armies and happily purge away. ;)
 

Surimi

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Or just put a load of armies on the planet to quell unrest.

Reduced army cost is actually kind of useful now, for this reason.

Slave armies are almost as cheap as defensive armies but come with transports, so if you're a slaver type you can have a battle thrall planet with a strong species and have a mobile oppression force (which can also be pretty decent at invasions).
 

elitesix

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As Authoritarian, using caste system and domestic servitude with social welfare makes tge newly conquered free pops gain the domestic servants bonus and the social welfare bonus. But you still have to build armies.

Xenophobe slavery you still have to build armies.

Harmony +happiness and default social welfare is another micro free way of handling conquered pops. As is egalitarian's utopoan abundance. Just still feels weird and unRP that egalitarian or harmony have the most hands off micro free way of dealing with conquered populations....
 

tobias.mb

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Slave armies are almost as cheap as defensive armies but come with transports, so if you're a slaver type you can have a battle thrall planet with a strong species and have a mobile oppression force (which can also be pretty decent at invasions).
Fanatical purifiers can't enslave anyone (without changing ethics). They are forced to purge aliens and you need authoritarian to enslave your own primary spiecies.

It was ok once I figured out to station armies at those planets, when they revolt because of the deathcamp purge. Problem: You cannot build defensive armies and station them on those pesky purge planets, so I used attack armies (is there a way?)
I was using clones. They are about as expensive as standard armies, but they are super fast to build. And unrest reduction depends only on amount of armies.
Also fanatical purifiers get an army bonus, which might not sound like much, but it does mean that even relatively weak armies are good enough for you in almost all cases.

I guess unity tradition can also help, since it somewhat reduces unrest.

Better: cleanse planet wargoals and take only planets where master race can live. Then resettle a few master race pops, build a few def armies and happily purge away.
I used a very adaptive race for this reason. They can live everywhere.
 

GC13

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Can you enslave the whole xeno species as Authoritarian? Or this is only for Xenophobes?
Authoritarians get Caste System which only enslaves the miners and farmers. If you want to enslave the rest of the species, you need Xenophobe to enable Slavery.
 

Less2

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Utopian Abundance will absolutely kill your mineral income. Hell Social Welfare alone kills your mineral income, don't go above Decent or Impoverished.

Handle unrest with troops, ignore happiness.
 

Madzai

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Authoritarians get Caste System which only enslaves the miners and farmers. If you want to enslave the rest of the species, you need Xenophobe to enable Slavery.
So, the topic-started was right about egalitarian. Xenophobes can conquer all the want, but with penalty to energy and science from enslaving every xenos, it feels much less efficient.
 

GC13

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So, the topic-started was right about egalitarian. Xenophobes can conquer all the want, but with penalty to energy and science from enslaving every xenos, it feels much less efficient.
That's what I'm finding with my fanatic xenophobe playthrough. I have the minerals and fleet to conquer the galaxy with ease, but I really need dyson spheres but I can't get them because I can't research quickly enough. The energy limits my fleet size, but not enough to stop me from taking everyone over.

The assault army limit is also making it hard to control slave worlds that are outside of my habitability group, actually. I might need some battle thralls...
 

elitesix

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Utopian Abundance will absolutely kill your mineral income. Hell Social Welfare alone kills your mineral income, don't go above Decent or Impoverished.

Handle unrest with troops, ignore happiness.

Utopian abundance doesn't hurt mineral production much since you only use for as long as the recently conquered penalty exists and then switch to decent or impoverished (one decade I believe). I've found spending minerals to build armies and the lost production of all types due to unrest (while building the armies) after conquering to be much more significant in terms of lost production.


That's what I'm finding with my fanatic xenophobe playthrough. I have the minerals and fleet to conquer the galaxy with ease, but I really need dyson spheres but I can't get them because I can't research quickly enough. The energy limits my fleet size, but not enough to stop me from taking everyone over.

The assault army limit is also making it hard to control slave worlds that are outside of my habitability group, actually. I might need some battle thralls...

You can switch the xenos to residence as a xenophobe, and they produce at their normal rates. Good for getting good research out of alien species.

So, the topic-started was right about egalitarian. Xenophobes can conquer all the want, but with penalty to energy and science from enslaving every xenos, it feels much less efficient.

Yeah, it's just weird that the egalitarian ethos is the best for integrating conquered peoples instantly (though xenophobe slavery until the recently conquered penalty goes away then switching to residence works well).

Maybe egalitarian being the best conqueror ethos that makes sense from a realism/RP perspective? Thoughts?
 
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Machofish

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As Surimi said, authoritarian slave armies are probably one of the best and cheapest ways to smother unrest - plus, during actual wars, it's hilariously easy to swarm planets with slave armies without needing to wait for a prolonged bombardment to soften up the defenders.

One thing (probably not working-as-designed) is that mid-high levels of Unrest often result in planet modifiers that increase the attraction of certain ethics... particularly authoritarian and militarist ethics, conveniently. Aside from an easily-repaired insurgent bombing or the odd riot here and there, unrest generally makes itself go away quite handily. As for consumer goods, I'd say just setting them up to 'decent' and grant them chattel-citizenship status (not residence) tends to cheer them up somewhat.

I can't speak to the alternate forms of slavery from the Utopia DLC, but I've found that default chattel slavery is surprisingly good at pacifying a newly-conquered population. Just make sure to divide the conquered POPs evenly between slaves and non-slaves. The 'unsuppressed' POPs might complain a bit at first, but they'll quickly gain authoritarian sympathies after a short while - especially since being on the same planet as enslaved pops will increase their attraction to authoritarianism. There's a particular humanitarian atrocity that happened in the 1990's that was attributed to very similar circumstances - but referencing that in detail would be in pretty poor taste, so instead I'll draw reference to Jane Elliot's blue eyes/brown eyes experiment.

Essentially, the best way to divide an angry mob is to arbitrarily isolate one half, and convince them that they're somehow entitled to better economic/social treatment than the others from their 'mob'. This creates a social rift, and then unrest starts dropping since there's no unified 'voice of resistance'.
I cannot stress how important it is to achieve this balance: An authoritarian conqueror cannot handle the unrest of an entire planet full of free POPs for obvious reasons. However, unconditionally enslaving everyone on the entire planet will not suppress the unrest enough - furthermore, since all enslaved POPs are attracted to egalitarianism, planet-wide enslavement to fix unrest just 'kicks the can down the road.'

Thus, I think the best solution is dividing conquered POPs between enslaved and unenslaved, which slowly cultivates a local support base to help smother unrest from the other enslaved POPs. After all, "It's better to be the right hand of the devil than in his path."

Paradox games really bring out the best in people, don't they?


On the overall topic of empire expansion, I do find that it's easier to expand as an authoritarian when I turn defeated empires into vassals instead of trying to annex their entire territory outright. I just cherry-pick somewhere around 2 to 5 of the loser's most useful planets and let them keep the rest of their territory in vassalage. This means I don't need to sit around drumming my fingers for a full decade knowing that I'm going to need to gobble up the rest of their planets in a followup war, plus this helps me get the best parts of a defeated empire's territory without shouldering the extra science/unity strain of supporting small, useless colonies that the AI may have started. There isn't get as much of a direct mineral or military production boost from vassalage compared to outright annexation, but I've found that it tends to balance out when the vassals provide military support in subsequent wars.

Having a bunch of vassals is like being in a federation, except the overlord gets to be federation president 100% of the time, gets all the votes for war, doesn't need the approval of the other federation members to add new members (the overlord doesn't even need the approval of the empire they're planning to add to their 'federation', depending on how you look at it), and if a 'federation' member doesn't want to cooperate with the overlord, the overlord can just eat their entire empire using subject integration.

All this being said, I have found that playing an egalitarian empire with civics/ethics dedicated to boosting happiness is more productive and requires less work from the player - a POP's productiveness can be boosted as much as 20% without planet-specific micromanagement, across mines, energy, and research. Enslavement, if I recall, gives +10% productivity as a flat boost, +10% IF a planet's tile is used on the pricey slave processing facility (they take a long time to build and the Sector AI just loves demolishing them, so watch out), +10% if one of your empire's precious civic slots are used on slave guilds, and +10% if a leader slot is used on a governor with iron-fisted, and another +10% if the 'Share the Burden' edict is active. That is a hell of a lot, but it's only for mineral and food production, plus it takes quite a bit of time and dedicated infrastructure to make slavery profitable, and of course it doesn't apply to energy or research like a happiness boost does.

One mistake I think a lot of players seem to make is assuming that the core-authoritarian playstyle meshes well with a core-xenophobic playstyle, simply because they both permit slavery: the problem is that the core xenophobic approach tends to rely on slavery as a 'temporary,' short-term fix to keep conquered xeno POPs under control until the xenophobic empire is ready to replace the slaves with happier and more useful POPs from the empire's core species. By contrast, authoritarian empires rely on slavery as a perpetual, foundational part of their society, and must make sure newly-conquered alien POPs implement, accept, and eventually support class-based enslavement in a stable and productive fashion.
 
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Less2

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Utopian abundance doesn't hurt mineral production much since you only use for as long as the recently conquered penalty exists and then switch to decent or impoverished (one decade I believe). I've found spending minerals to build armies and the lost production of all types due to unrest (while building the armies) after conquering to be much more significant in terms of lost production.

Say you conquer 10 worlds with 15 pops each. 150 pops total. Assuming I'm not missing something important and CG costs are constant, here's your expenses:

Impoverished: 56.5 M/month
Decent: 75 M/m
Welfare: 112.5 M/m
Utopian: 150 M/m

At 10 years Utopian is costing you 11k minerals over impoverished. I'll take the impoverished setting and spend 2000 Minerals on the defensive armies to keep them down.
 

elitesix

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Say you conquer 10 worlds with 15 pops each. 150 pops total. Assuming I'm not missing something important and CG costs are constant, here's your expenses:

Impoverished: 56.5 M/month
Decent: 75 M/m
Welfare: 112.5 M/m
Utopian: 150 M/m

At 10 years Utopian is costing you 11k minerals over impoverished. I'll take the impoverished setting and spend 2000 Minerals on the defensive armies to keep them down.

You also need to factor in:

(a) the decreased overall production due to low happiness without slavery;

(b) or the decreased energy/science/unity production if you're using slavery and the amount of minerals needed to specialize the now useless non-food/mineral buildings (which can be very significant for high level V buildings as each one can cost 600 minerals to replace).

Regarding cost of respecializing buildings: so for example, in your example involving slavery, if you have to replace more than 18 level V buildings (which is a very low estimate given most nations on the whole have more than 1/3 non-farm/non-mineral buildings) you're saving mineralsby doing utopian abundance temporarily over your suggestion of slavery, armies to reduce unrest, and redeveloping useless non-food/mineral buildings. If you plan on switching to residence after the recently conquered penalty goes away, then you don't need to calculate this, but I'd bet that the lost energy/science production from 10 years of slavery on energy/science tiles exceeds 9k in lost minerals in your example.
 
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Erei

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So, the topic-started was right about egalitarian. Xenophobes can conquer all the want, but with penalty to energy and science from enslaving every xenos, it feels much less efficient.
While authoritarian have more control on the slavery, they also have poor factions compared to xenophobe. Xenophile faction will be very high quickly, since you'll have "free xenos" and likely "charismatic xenos" in the empire. And they will be mad at you for enslaving the xenos. You are looking at a -20% penalty. In the end, it's manageable, but you will have less happiness for a while, and thus less resources.
It's also worth noting that putting the people from a faction you don't like (like equalitarian) will eventually destroy the faction (when they are all enslaved). Sadly, as soon as you give the planet to a sector, he will put them out of slavery (probably to raise their happiness), and thus reboot the faction.

Xenophobes doesn't have those issues.
 

Drakonn

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Or just put a load of armies on the planet to quell unrest.

Reduced army cost is actually kind of useful now, for this reason.

Slave armies are almost as cheap as defensive armies but come with transports, so if you're a slaver type you can have a battle thrall planet with a strong species and have a mobile oppression force (which can also be pretty decent at invasions).

I actually found a primitive planet with a decent amount of pops that had the Very Strong trait. Needless to say, I conquered them and made them Battle Thralls. And my, oh my, are they utterly fantastic. Even their slave army is better than my standard (and their standard is even better) by leagues. Though you'll have to expand their population to support more of their armies. Very worth as those armies rolled over planets very quickly. Not to mention using them to quell unrest for my other slaves is cheap too.

Utopian Abundance will absolutely kill your mineral income. Hell Social Welfare alone kills your mineral income, don't go above Decent or Impoverished.

Handle unrest with troops, ignore happiness.

Hmm, Social Welfare is not too bad honestly. I gave my aforementioned Battle Thralls Social Welfare and now I don't even need any troops on any of their planets. As they now have no unrest. Granted, when I tested the lower conditions I could get up to 20 minerals a month extra. (they're only on 2 planets; not filled)
 

Less2

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You also need to factor in:

(a) the decreased overall production due to low happiness without slavery;

(b) or the decreased energy/science/unity production if you're using slavery and the amount of minerals needed to specialize the now useless non-food/mineral buildings (which can be very significant for high level V buildings as each one can cost 600 minerals to replace).

Regarding cost of respecializing buildings: so for example, in your example involving slavery, if you have to replace more than 18 level V buildings (which is a very low estimate given most nations on the whole have more than 1/3 non-farm/non-mineral buildings) you're saving money by doing utopian abundance temporarily over your suggestion of slavery, armies to reduce unrest, and redeveloping useless non-food/mineral buildings. If you plan on switching to residence after the recently conquered penalty goes away, then you don't need to calculate this, but I'd bet that the lost energy/science production from 10 years of slavery on energy/science tiles exceeds 11k in lost minerals in your example.


Happiness effects are miniscule compared to the CG costs. To give a real world example:

+416/+837/+1.3k resource rates on impoverished.
+670/-375/+1.3k after switching to just Social Welfare in my game.

So yeah, I stand by my assertion that CG costs will bankrupt you and especially your sectors

No need to repurpose buildings. -20% happiness penalties are bearable so long as you handle unrest. Slavery is just a nice bonus. The only way to make stuff useless is to let unrest stay high.

EDIT: Should also mention that the cost of happiness actually goes down as the game goes on. Since modifiers are additive the more bonuses you get the less that the -20% hurts you. Mid/Late when you sit on +50% or more it's pretty negligible.

Hmm, Social Welfare is not too bad honestly. I gave my aforementioned Battle Thralls Social Welfare and now I don't even need any troops on any of their planets. As they now have no unrest. Granted, when I tested the lower conditions I could get up to 20 minerals a month extra. (they're only on 2 planets; not filled)

Exactly, 20 minerals a month is enough to buy 10 troops apiece in under 2 years. Then you'll have 20 minerals a month at the cost of the troops ~2.5 energy maintenance. It's nice to be loved but better to be feared.
 
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