Egalitarian faction doesn't care that I have slaves, but won't let me control them

[LeonOfOddecca]

My egalitarian faction doesn't seem to care that I've enslaved a bunch of filthy xenos. However, when it comes to birth control, or relocation of those slaves, they seem to care deeply. This doesn't make a great deal of sense. Either the Egalitarian faction should be unhappy about having any slaves in the empire, or it should be okay with us relocating them anywhere we want, as well as stopping them from breeding. Personally I would prefer the latter. Like the refugee policy, population control and resettlement policy should have an option that distinguishes between citizens and non-citizens.

 

[Strangedane]

Egalitarians prefer freerange, organic xenoburgers.

Not that factory produced xenospam.

I should make this my sig at this point.

 

[AlanC9]

Paradox has always had trouble with xenophobe egalitarians. It was only with this patch that they started being able to tolerate slaves at all. And they still dislike Stratified Economy, which is silly if they're OK with slavery.

The odd thing is that the Free Movement preference is incoherent on its face; migration controls are checked per pop, but resettlement only checks the global policy. I don't know how somebody codes that without noticing that what he's doing doesn't make sense. Of course, it could have been just too hard to implement, since there isn't a species-specific flag for resettlement.

 

[LeonOfOddecca]

Paradox has always had trouble with xenophobe egalitarians. It was only with this patch that they started being able to tolerate slaves at all. And they still dislike Stratified Economy, which is silly if they're OK with slavery.

I'm actually okay with Egalitarian faction not tolerating slaves at all. At least that's consistent. However, if Paradox wants to make the Egalitarian faction tolerate xeno slaves, they can't just make that one change and call it a day. They also have to make the Egalitarian faction okay with relocating xeno slaves and controlling their population. It's just a matter of consistency.

The odd thing is that the Free Movement preference is incoherent on its face; migration controls are checked per pop, but resettlement only checks the global policy. I don't know how somebody codes that without noticing that what he's doing doesn't make sense. Of course, it could have been just too hard to implement, since there isn't a species-specific flag for resettlement.

Yeah, that's bizarre.

 

[YertyL]

Authoritarian/Egalitarian should care how your citizens are treated, Xenophobe/-phile should care who gets to be a citizen in the first place.

There is a similar problem with Authoritarian/Pacifist combo btw, since authoritarians want to have vassals, and there would be with xenophobe/pacifist if we did not have a specific faction for that, which is IMO a somewhat unelegant solution.
In my eyes, factions should care about very few faction specific goals, i.e. "are there alien residents?"/"are all aliens residents?" , "is a species enslaved?"/"are all alien species enslaved?" and "are we in a federation?" for xenophobe/-phile, or at war/at peace, rivalries/non-aggression pacts for militarists/pacifists. The way it currently is, i.e. factions having goals unrelated to their core issue, is more flavorful, I guess, but makes some ethics combinations objectively worse than other, and thus pushes everyone to commit to the "bad guys" (authoritarian/spiritualist/militarist/xenophobe) or "good guys" (the opposites), which is IMO the worse option overall.

 

[Strangedane]

I'm not actually seeing the problem with this.

50 years ago noone gave a shit that livestock was treated poorly, filled with drugs and generally malnourished.
Today people are getting shamed for eating beef because: "think of your carbon footprint".
There's also a slew of organic option, and non-suffering livestock options. (at least that's what people think they're buying, stupid retards)

Egalitarians care how their food is treated. It kinda makes sense.

Looking at Maslow, you won't care how the food is being treated if you yourself is struggling with your physiological needs or safety needs
Somewhere around social belonging and self-esteem, you might begin looking past you own needs and start looking at societal situations.
Somewhere around self-realization you might actually be standing around protesting the evil xeno-spam makers who's hurting those poor blorg.
There's no need for them to suffer or have bad diets before being turned into burgers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

 

[Tacticus101]

People can believe in the inferiority of other races without believing that they should be mistreated.

 

[YertyL]

I'm not actually seeing the problem with this.

50 years ago noone gave a shit that livestock was treated poorly, filled with drugs and generally malnourished.
Today people are getting shamed for eating beef because: "think of your carbon footprint".
There's also a slew of organic option, and non-suffering livestock options. (at least that's what people think they're buying, stupid retards)

Egalitarians care how their food is treated. It kinda makes sense.

Looking at Maslow, you won't care how the food is being treated if you yourself is struggling with your physiological needs or safety needs
Somewhere around social belonging and self-esteem, you might begin looking past you own needs and start looking at societal situations.
Somewhere around self-realization you might actually be standing around protesting the evil xeno-spam makers who's hurting those poor blorg.
There's no need for them to suffer or have bad diets before being turned into burgers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

Um yeah, but no one would propose free migration and breeding for cows. This is akin to "decent living standards", at most.

 

[Strangedane]

Um yeah, but no one would propose free migration and breeding for cows. This is akin to "decent living standards", at most.

But then cows aren't sentient beings, and yet there is huge consumption of organic and freerange products.
Imagine if the cows could complain in a completely relatable way.
"Yeah, me and moooriella are going to be slaughtered, sure, but why can't we see paris before we die?"
I'll bet you the ALL the rackets that there'd be people wanting to send them to paris.

Having no experience with sentient meat preparation myself I wouldn't be able to say if it would affect the taste if they where free to migrate and repopulate as they saw fit.
I can't say how it would affect the psychology and productivity of sentient lifestock being deprived of these things.
Can you honestly say that in a society where eating sentient "non-people" is deemed ok, there wouldn't be people championing their causes?


Ed: Much as i'd like to label this on an environmentalist/industrialist axis, the game doesn't have one, and as such Maslow makes most sense for me, and also sorta comforms to game mechanics.

 

[AlanC9]

Can you honestly say that in a society where eating sentient "non-people" is deemed ok, there wouldn't be people championing their causes?.

But that's just a case of having a faction that doesn't conform to the majority ethics, isn't it? We already have that.

The problem is that we can't do what YertyL suggested, and have a society where all of us are equal, all of not-us have inferior rights or no rights, and the vast majority of us don't have a problem with our society working like that. It's incoherent if you think that all sapients should have the same rights, sure, but having a society which doesn't share that assumption is precisely the point.

 

[Tacticus101]

The Egalitarian faction dislikes it when:
1) There is inequality amoungst their free species. (No leader enhancements, dictators or stratified living standards)
2) All Citizen species must have freedom of movement (no migration controls on free pops)
3) Any species is mistreated (banned from reproducing or forcefully ships to other planets)


I think that makes reasonable sense.

 

[YertyL]

...
Having no experience with sentient meat preparation myself I wouldn't be able to say if it would affect the taste if they where free to migrate and repopulate as they saw fit.
I can't say how it would affect the psychology and productivity of sentient lifestock being deprived of these things.
Can you honestly say that in a society where eating sentient "non-people" is deemed ok, there wouldn't be people championing their causes?

I'm pretty sure you're describing a xenophile faction.

The Egalitarian faction dislikes it when:
(....)
3) Any species is mistreated (banned from reproducing or forcefully ships to other planets)
I think that makes reasonable sense.

Again, xenophiles.

We don't need to go to cows as an example, just look at ancient Greek democracy/pre-civil war USA. All men are created equal, except the non-Greeks/non-white. I'm pretty sure there was some forceful shipping involved as well.

 

[AlanC9]

The Egalitarian faction dislikes it when:
1) There is inequality amoungst their free species. (No leader enhancements, dictators or stratified living standards)
2) All Citizen species must have freedom of movement (no migration controls on free pops)
3) Any species is mistreated (banned from reproducing or forcefully ships to other planets)


I think that makes reasonable sense.

Why? Points 1 and 2 don't imply point 3.

 

[Dustman]

There is only one real problem with X-phobe Egalitarian atm, namely that slaves can't be moved around. Pop controls, banning slaves from reproduction, is more or less in line, tho' it's debatable, but no way to move enslaved pop when policy settings are 'resettlement prohibited' is a clear bug since this policy is for free pops only. I've filed a bug report a while ago, so hopefully it makes to 2.2.4, but my hopes aren't really high.

Frankly, this is a first patch where we can build Plato's ideal republics with a citizen and two slaves

 

[The Founder]

And they still dislike Stratified Economy, which is silly if they're OK with slavery.

With Slavery there had always been a few crossed wires.
On the one hand it was a Xenophobe/-phile thing.
On the other hand, it was a Authoritarian/Egalitarian thing.

If you wanted to do a "Slave Holding Republic" - wich were all republics before the 19th century - the Factions became confused. There was no reliable way to differentiate Xeno and Authoritarian Slavery.
Even if you could sort it out for the Factions, what about Ethics attraction?

But now we have Stratified Economy + Authoritarian Worker bonuses to simulate "Slavery light". The game can finally differentiate between Xenophobe and Authoritarian opression reliably, while Authoritarian still gives you effects similar to having enslaved workers.

 

[Tacticus101]

Again, xenophiles.

That is not Xenophile. Xenophiles dont care about individual equality or the treatment of their pops. You can oppress and mistreat your pops all you like, as long as you mistreat different species equally.

We don't need to go to cows as an example, just look at ancient Greek democracy/pre-civil war USA. All men are created equal, except the non-Greeks/non-white. I'm pretty sure there was some forceful shipping involved as well.

Depends. Without getting into arguments about which nations were actually Egalitarian:

Athenenian slaves had laws and protections. Murder and violence towards slaves was illegal, they were allowed to have families and even purchase their freedom. In fact, any Citizen could prosecute a master who mistreated their slaves.

Equally, in other societies where there was slavery, whilst there may have been no major protections in law for Slaves, it did not mean that individuals did not treat their slaves well.

There is a difference after all between the Ethics of an Empire and the choices of individual pops. Whilst an empire as a whole might embrace the concept of murdering slaves routinely, the Egalitarian faction within that empire is able to disapprove of it.

 

[Flame13223]

Paradox has always had trouble with xenophobe egalitarians. It was only with this patch that they started being able to tolerate slaves at all. And they still dislike Stratified Economy, which is silly if they're OK with slavery.

The odd thing is that the Free Movement preference is incoherent on its face; migration controls are checked per pop, but resettlement only checks the global policy. I don't know how somebody codes that without noticing that what he's doing doesn't make sense. Of course, it could have been just too hard to implement, since there isn't a species-specific flag for resettlement.

Honestly, egalitarians not having a resettling option is terrible for game balance. The tool is way too useful now since 2.2 to forgo. I used to play egalitarian pretty much non-stop before, but right now its just not balanced whatsoever.

 

[AlanC9]

Honestly, constant resettlement is such a PITA that I find myself more incentivized to play egalitarians now.

 

[AlanC9]

That is not Xenophile. Xenophiles dont care about individual equality or the treatment of their pops. You can oppress and mistreat your pops all you like, as long as you mistreat different species equally.



Depends. Without getting into arguments about which nations were actually Egalitarian:

Athenenian slaves had laws and protections. Murder and violence towards slaves was illegal, they were allowed to have families and even purchase their freedom. In fact, any Citizen could prosecute a master who mistreated their slaves.

Equally, in other societies where there was slavery, whilst there may have been no major protections in law for Slaves, it did not mean that individuals did not treat their slaves well.

There is a difference after all between the Ethics of an Empire and the choices of individual pops. Whilst an empire as a whole might embrace the concept of murdering slaves routinely, the Egalitarian faction within that empire is able to disapprove of it.

You're still assuming what you're attempting to prove; it's not a useful way to make a case. Why should Egalitarian apply to all sapients?

 

[Flame13223]

Honestly, constant resettlement is such a PITA that I find myself more incentivized to play egalitarians now.

Well, not everyone likes micro I guess. Still, I wish there were at least a weaker version of resettlement available for egalitarians...or perhaps an automated version, I mean if I could set a max limit of pops on a planet after which it automatically resettles the next pop to a planet of my selection it would be pretty friggin good.