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Kartuvės

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So a while back on discord(by the way, I still plan writing more there, I just have been WAY too busy) I wrote quite a few of these "effortposts" which essentially were mini articles on the Baltic's. I was told to post them on the forum but it refused to post, so I haven't tried again... Until now. Since I'm having trouble with the forum for some unknown reason I'll try posting each one in separate posts.
 

Kartuvės

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Lithuania and the overview
Religiously the Baltics were odd. There were several types of Baltic paganism, most notable:
1. Prussian paganism(Probably the most organized, they had a strong caste-like class system)
2. Latvian(probably the most archaic, considering they had strong remnants of the old European paganism seen in their mate's)
and lastly 3. Lithuanian. It is a middleground between Latvian and Prussian Baltic Paganism, but it is often split into two subgroups:
1. The Warrior Pantheon. Much closer to the Prussian one, the gods are all warlike.
2. The peasant pantheon. This one we got the most information about, considering it technically never even died(according to Jonas Trinkūnas the final one whose ancestors were all pagans died in 1909 but by then many new converts had appeared)
I'll mainly base off my points of Beresnevičius, which is in my opinion the best source on Lithuanian paganism. Since I'm Lithuanian the main focus will be on Lithuania but I'll make sure Latvians and Prussians get some attention too.
Dievas in Lithuania(unlike Latvia and Prussia) had become a god who doesn't actively take part in the rulling of the people. While important for the afterlife he is mainly seen as a force keeping order.
Perkūnas, probably the son of Dievas, is the one who does the rulling. He is seen as the god of weather, thunder, war and justice.
Žemyna was a very important god for the peasants since she was the goddess of farming.

Velnias was the lord of the underworld and is known for being the enemy of Perkūnas. While demonized today in ye olden days it is unlikely he was feared or seen as much evil, as he was shat on during the rise of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania when Perkūnas became the most worshiped god which didn't help, but most of the damage came from the christinisation of Lithuania.
Saulė, unlike in Latvia, wasn't too often worshiped. But she did exist. The god who was much more important for the role of the god of light was Švaistikas, the lightbringer. I've read he apparently had a sword whose wielder can conquer the world but a witch had stolen it, but I cannot find the source of the claim. He is most close to Apollo in my honest opinion.

I'll quickly talk a bit on the political state of the tribes, then later do another effortpost on Latvian and Prussian paganism.
The map in CK2 wasn't that good. As the map it used as an example was mainly a cultural/linguistic map. I at the moment only have a good Latvia map, so I'll post it now and later bring a map for the rest of the Baltics
(would be an iamagine but need more posts)
The Curonian livs are shown as part of Curonia due to them being apparently subjegated

also random fun fact: Lithuanians were afraid of saying Perkūnas's name, often calling him Dundulis and believing only the wisest are worthy of calling his name. The exception of this seems to be in war where they tried to catch his attention.
 

Kartuvės

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Prussia
To begin this effortpost(which shall be about Prussia) I shall discuss the societal situation in Prussia.

"Und nanten in crywo cyrwaito, dos ist unser herre nich gotthe ane seinen willen sie nix thuen wolften and solten und in hören wie die göthe selbist"
"And they called him Crywo Cyrwaito, that is high lord, without his will they would not do anything and they obeyed him like the gods themselves"


This quote is from the Prussian Chronicle, in a section about the well known kings Widewutis and Brutenis. While many believe this story is made up, it is still undeniable it has much truth inside it. For example the religious laws, many of which are supported by archeology. I am not translating this directly from the chronicle, but from the book "Baltic Religious Reforms" in which they aren't even complied. They are compiled by me.
1. Patolas, Patrimpas and Perkūnas are the highest Prussian gods and it isn't allowed to worship other gods.
2. The Krivis Krivaitis and Vaidilas taking this post will be recognised as the highest rulers.
3. Gods must be worshiped and listened and the Krivis Krivaitis not even slightly less. After this they apparently provide a perspective about the afterlife for the faithful. Apparently similiar to the Muslim one but the book does not provide.
4. All the neighbours of Rikajoto(A city) who do not worship in the gods must be killed with fire and clubs
5. Every woman who has refused to give her body to an marriage may be burned, and her sisters left as shamed people, as they have failed to teach her loyalty to the husbands and gods. A man who has married more than three women is given to the dogs to eat as he has broken the will of the gods.
6. If a man is surounded by sick women, children, brothers, sisterms and kinsmen or if he was sick himself then if it is in his will he or they may burn themselves. As the servants of the gods must laugh and not complain.

The other doesn't list more as apparently some other author has looked into it already, however he does say a bit more regarding classes;
According to the book once they came the Ulmingen peoples were held as lower, the only sense of unity they had was religious. Brutens in Rikajoto if the newcommers wanted the Ulmingen to work for them, they must first ask, give them drink and thank them for their work. He knew even they wanted to be noblemen so he announced that the ones fastest to ride to Widewutis will be declared noblemen no matter the blood. Those men of Ulmingen origin that succeded ended up marrying into the newcommer families. These noblemen would work out, ride and duel with eachother. Which means in Prussia there appeared not only three main classes - Priests, warriors and farmers, but also there were some lifts between the last two classes: A farmer wishing to become a warrior if he grew a good enough horse could become part of the tribes aristocracy. They're held up by the farmers, who are payed for their part(probably in war spoils).

The Prussian Religion;
Compared to the Lithuanian and Latvian pantheon, the Prussian's were EXTREMELY patriarchal. To the point they didn't have any (known) female gods. But for now here's the list of gods I believe would have been most important;
Pikuls- God of the underworld and Anger
Patrīmps - Prussian god of Fertility, associated with war success
Perkūns - Prussian god of thunder and war
Aušlavis* - Lithuanian and Prussion god of healing
Autrīmps - Said to be the god of sea, little information regarding him
Bangputtis - Actually survived till our day in western Lithuania, god of the sea and storms. Sometimes called an angry spirit. Most sailors were afraid of him and would avoid angering him at all costs
Kurka - Prussian god of fertility, a very old god. Most likely something borrowed from an non Baltic region.
Pergrubrijus* - Prussian and Lithuanian god of spring.
Pilnytis* - Prussian god of wealth
Švaistikas* - Prussian lightbringer. Talked more in detail about him in the Lithuanian effortpost.
Ūkapirms - Prussian equivalient of Dievas
*Means I used the Lithuanian name. Might find the Prussian one if asked

would be a link to a list of prussian names but need five posts
 

Kartuvės

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Latvia(Note not written by me but my good friend)
Lands of Kurši, Zemgaļi, Sēļi, Līvi and Latgaļi

Pre-Christian territory of modern Latvia was split between Baltic (Kurši, Zemgaļi, Sēļi, Latgaļi) and Finno-Ugric people (Lībieši or Līvi). Religiously, the majority of Baltic people followed Pagan faith, even when their nobles accepted various forms of Christianity (Orthodox in Latgallian kingdoms and Catholic in Curonian/Semgallian ones). In current day, most of historical and folk sources, about Baltic religion (also called Dievturība), that have been saved through the Christian times are mostly peasant in nature, focusing on fertility, earth and wealth deities, rather than fighting ones or philospohical ones.

Just like in other types of Indo-European Paganism, big focus lies on the nature and human place within it. For example, there are hundreds of deities called “mātes” or mothers in English, each of them responsible for some kind of sphere on her own. For example, “Jūras māte” meaning “Sea mother” is responsible for Sea and fishing, while “veļu māte” or “mother of the gone souls” is responsible for taking people into afterlife. This was a big part of Baltic native faith, especially for the peasantry. Each of these mothers weren’t a separate deity, but a form of “Māra” - one of the big deities, responsible for everything material, also an archetype of a perfect mother, similar to one laid out by Jung. As such, Māra was both responsible for bringing human life into this world, and taking it from it. Another important deity was Laima, meaning either “luck” or “fate”. Laima was responsible for the fate of each human. “Ūsiņš” is another important deity for peasantry and landowners. He was the patron of horses, good harvest, spring and summer, and festival for him was celebrated in early May. Another specific form of him was “Jumis”, who was the deity responsible solely for harvest and fertility.

In final, about deities concerning peasantry and land-owners, it’s clear, that pre-Christian Baltic people celebrated fertility, light, summer, good harvest, and Earth on it’s own.

Now, to the more warrior-like Gods, the most important of them is Pērkons – similar to Thor in Nordic faith, Indra or Vishnu in Vedic traditions, Perun in Slavic and the good spirit in Zoroastrianism. Pērkons wasn’t celebrated by peasantry as much, as he was the God of war, thunder and lighting, the power aiming to destroy the forces of chaos. He was however, the patron of warrior caste, frequently portrayed with an double-edged axe or sword. Wolf is usually seen as his animal, and they are called “Dieva suņi” or “dogs of God” in Latvian folklore. His direct adversary was “Velns”, the God of Underworld, stealing and trading. Velns isn’t comparable to Christian concept of evil, as he was just perceived as the chaotic part of this Universe, while Pērkons was the guard of order, with Dievs being the creator of it. In a sense, while Christianity employs unrelated dualism, here this dualism is contained with in one system or order (think of it as a Yin-Yang symbol, where both the dark and white exist within one circle, not being separate while still being opposites). Velns has been portrayed as both smart and witty, and not that bright, usually being won over by a hero far smarter than him. This most likely symbolizes the victory of the light over the dark power. Velns is not seen as the universal evil, as he is also affiliated with common magic and more earthly things like trading and outplaying your opponents.

Dievs is the creator of the Universe, symbolizing the over-wordly knowledge and light. In older mythos, he created the world together with Velns, who later started to work against him. Another interesting thing, symbolizing the duality within confined system, is a myth, telling about creation of human, in which God creates only the half of human, and the other half is done by Velns, thus bringing humans, as we know them into the existence.
Now, to the political and societal structure of the Northern Baltic lands. It is a common misconception that the Germanic Orders brought civilization to Baltic lands, when in fact, there was pretty much a feudal structure already in place, with around 4-5 bigger Pagan Kingdoms.

Baltic Kingdoms were well organized to the smallest cells of it, with the basic foundations being “saime”, which could be roughly translated to “large family”. It was usually around 15-30 people in size, and was made, when multiple generations of children continued their lives close to their parents (for example, many sons build their houses next to their family house, something that frequently is seen in location names around Latvia up to this day). Saime was led by a father or grand-father, similar to other patriarchal pre-Christian societies (Rome immediately comes to mind). People who belonged to “saime” were called “labie ļaudis” or “labieši”, which is pretty much the word used to describe both Old Latvian nobility and free people in these societies, something akin to Roman patricians – after all, “labieši” directly translates to “good people”. Something also important, the souls of the ancestors were believed to continue their lives as part of saime even after their death, but Old Baltic beliefs on afterlife and soul is another topic, that is too large for this post. “Labieši” were able to receive land from their fathers after their death, freely move, build houses and work on their land themselves. They were above slaves and various forms of societal outcasts, who also worked in saimes, but were called “neļaudis” - “unpeople”.

Many saimes together made up one kin - “dzimts”, that was responsible for their village county - “ciemnovads”, which was usually populated by around 25 saimes.
Many such kins together made up the most stable form of Baltic political entities - “pilsnovads”, which could be roughly translated to “castlehill county” (the Scandinavian name used for them was “Borchsokung”), because it was an entity, centred around one castle, in which the elder (“vecais” or “labietis”) of it lived together with his warrior group (“kara draudze” in Latvian, meaning “brotherhood of war”). In Curonia during 1200s, there were 148 such entities. Next to each castle, was also the sacred place of worship, called “Svētkalns” or sacred hill, in which the free elders of dzimtas held meetings and talked about political matters.
The leader of the pilsnovads was chosen out of all the local nobles and elders, who had achieved high status and standing. Very important was the family history of the potential leader, called “labdzimtība” or “good birth status” in English.

When pilsnovadi banded together, either through military or diplomatic means, they created unions of pilsnovadi, in older sources called “Zemes” or “The Lands”. In 1253. there were 9 such entities in Curonia – Ventava, Bandava, Piemare, Duvzare, Megava, Pilsāts, Ceklis and a sparsely populated land between Skrunda and Zemgale, with another of these lands being mostly Livonian populated, called Vanema. In Latgale, such there were such Zemes as Asote, Alene, Autine, Cesvaine, Gerden, Lepene, Mārciena, Negeste, Varka and many more. In Zemgale – Upmale, Žagare, Mežotne, Plāne, Tērvetene, Saulene, Spārnene, and many more. The map posted by Samogitian(me, check first post for it) is pretty great in portarying these borders accuractly.
Zemes together created Baltic Kingdoms – Such as Jersika, Latigola, Kursa, Zemgale and Sēlija. It was led by a council of nobles from each Zeme with their king being at the top of it. He had political power in all his holdings, however, it was kept in check by the council.
These kingdoms could be split in three castes + undesirables and slaves. The bottom one, peasantry or “zemnieki” made up the majority of each land, harvesting crops and providing the base for each state. Then, came the warriors or “kārēviji”, “karavīri”, which was the caste responsible for safety and protection, while being directly in service of their lord. The highest one, was the spiritual one, called “bramaņi”, “zintnieki” or by their most popular name “krīvi”. They were responsible for religious matters of the realm, keeping the knowledge and practicing Baltic rites. It is believed, that Baltic kings weren’t under their control, but rather a step above them.

That’s it for today, next time, I will be writing about all of the kingdoms separately.
 

Sugary

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Very Interesting, Latvian paganism and Baltic society in general seems very similar to Hinduism and the caste system in India. I hope we can have more depth to these pagan regions
 

Kartuvės

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Very Interesting, Latvian paganism and Baltic society in general seems very similar to Hinduism and the caste system in India. I hope we can have more depth to these pagan regions
All are fairly similiar :D
Just I'm not too familiar with vedic systems so I didn't compare them much. The mate however is. Gonna ask him more for that stuff
 

Leivve

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Baltics and eastern Europe is my favorite place to play, I just wish the Baltics didn't get screwed with having to share a unit pack with the fins.
 

Ezumiyr

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Very Interesting, Latvian paganism and Baltic society in general seems very similar to Hinduism and the caste system in India. I hope we can have more depth to these pagan regions
Meh.
It may sound like it superficially because of the use of certain keywords (like "caste"), but otherwise it's just the common indo-european stuff.


Anyway, I think I'm going to need scientific sources for what I read here. Not because I don't trust what it is written, but because afaik those informations are radically different from the general literature I found on the topic (first of all because we don't have a lot of evidence besides archaeological sources, and those are relatively scarce and mostly tell us about the material culture, not about the social structure). I'm also interested in what is extrapolation or speculation, and what is backed with actual evidence.

And yeah, also because I found it sounding a lot like nationalistic rewriting of history ("there was pretty much a feudal structure already in place, with around 4-5 bigger Pagan Kingdoms.") and I don't trust a stranger on the internet without some proof, especially when it's about civilizations that are so poorly documented (and that's coming from a specialist in Roman history who is well aware of the crap that has been extrapolated before we found some actual evidence in the ground or in some texts. Cf the discovery of the Epicurean library in Herculanum for a recent example).
 

Narvait

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@Ezumiyr
Being Latvian myself I do agree with your skepticism in terms of interpretation of history and/or mythology.
But what the guy above wrote about Latvians is a possible albeit not undisputed version of it :) like there is nothing undisputedly wrong.

What is lacking in this description is the interaction of locals with firstly Varangian and then Russian polities. Jersika country and Daugava Livs being somewhat subjects of Polotsk, and Talava paying a tribute to Novgorod (?) around time when crusaders arrived into Baltics.

Semigalls & Curonians were independent though. Semigalls were quite a force - according to Russian chronicles they killed 9,000 men when Polotsk tried to subdue them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semigallians
But not really a feudalism in strict sense. Indeed a lot of love for horses, comparable to even steppe people. Also only wooden hillforts... no stone castles :(
 

Kartuvės

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Whew this thread was destroyed by no PC. But I will try to return to it. But to respond to some old posts:
As in sources, I mainly used the works by the folklorist Gintaras Beresenivičius for Prussia and Lithuania, but Latvia I sadly cannot really comment. I asked a Latvian bud to write about it. For tribes I mainly relied on another Latvian bud, who went on archeology. But CK2 I think showed them fairly well aswell.
To get back into the mood, and to start properly citing stuff:)D) I will begin with translating some(albeit rather unimportant) bits from Pranė Dundelienė's book "Ancient Lithuanian Familiar Traditions" regarding marriage:
In 1286 happened the first recorded Lithuanian marriage, by Peter of Dusburg. According to the chronicler, "One Lithuanian, named Pelužis, after being insulted[...] by duke, who in his kingdom was the second most important man behind the Lithuanian king, he arrived to the brothers in Sembia for aid in attacking the said dukes garden. Once he arrived he saw almost every nobleman neighbor of the kingdom of Lithuania(1), once they, as according to old tradition of drinking, went to sleep(word to word translation layed down to rest) attacked them and killed 70 dukes alongside the owners of the home[...] the groom and bride, wifes of the dukes and children, hundered horses, gold and silver and all the items stolen were taken by them."
A source from Lithuania minor, giving information about marriages and the traditions of those getting married is (sorry for poor reanglinization) Jeronym Malecki's work; in it there are remnants of wife buying, the laments of the groom and is talking about leading her around a hearth, sitting her down on a pillow, and a the taking of her away in a special cart, "Palage". Similiarly is written by.....(I'm not spending three hours anglicizing names correctly, sorry, but most of them are trusted sources, albeit late, for example Daukantas)

Rest of it is just examples of wife buying. However there is a bit about wife stealing, which I had translated for a bud, albeit in much worse english. Here are a few relevant excerpts
According to old tradition, the newlywed had to ride on a horse or armed to the bride and dressed as an hunter. In Samogitia the newlywed had to shoot with his unit and rush into the house or garden

After a ritual in the brides home the young one would grab the bride and taker her into a carriage, and with his entire unit would go celebrate full with whistling and screaming. It is definitely remnants of the times when men would steal women. It was to scare off their family and any witches and angry spirits. There was also a tradition to drop pieces of stripes on the path the bride came from. Another remnant for showing what direction they took her.

Rituals with fire were done when meeting the brides returning from the marriage. In many places of the highlands the path of them returning home was covered in burning hay. In some regions they’d start a fire and while doing it they’d say that they’re burning witches. It was done so they wouldn’t mess with the marriage.

There are also folk songs for this, but they're badly translated. Hopefully with this poor post I'll return on track.


1. Weird sentance imo, but its what the book says, og: [...] Beveik visus Lietuvos karalystės kilminguosius kaimynus
 

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Well, tis been an overly long period since I last made any posts about this. But in honour of the Baltic religion actually getting proper screenshots of its new features(and thus accomplishing what I meant to do), I decided to make another one. dedicated to the new tenent for the Balts, Kūdikis Lemti.
To begin, I'll post by guess for the name, last time it was Romuva, after the Baltic pagan group, this time I assume its after the priestly title of Vaidila.
Baltic Beings of Birth
And now to the tenent, I will begin with Lithuanian folklore. Firstly Laimės, they are a mythological creature, probably named after the goddess of fate, Laima, but possible just the fact they're both named after happiness. They're both highly related to fate, one type of tales related to her who seem to be the most consistent is that of assigning a fate to a child, There are plenty in it but the source I am listing only has two; In one, a Laimė fortells that the baby shall die as soon as the firewood stops remaining on fire and in another she fortells that the baby shall drink himself to death at a ceirtain age. All attempts to stop the fates assigned are futile. The first mention of them is in a writting in latin written in around 1666, where he praises the songs of the Lithuanian folk and lists a few gods and beings that are sung about(Perkūnas, Lituans, Babilas, Gabartai, Gabjaukurs, Baube, Žemėpati, Laimellea ir Meletette), but does not go in deeper into what they do. More information is given by the german author Matthaeus Praetorius, who says "Leumele ijt die Gottin der Geburt" (They are the goddesses of birth). He also states that she is celebrated at births and even had a special drink for her. She is classed among the higher gods. I could go more indepth about this, but I don't want to spend too much time on this and leave some room for other important beings for birth;

Laumės are a Lithuanian folk creature most associated with children, but also are known for being rather hard working. First mention is by Matthaeus Praetorius and their tales remained quite popular, they are still sometimes being recorded in a few regions despite few believing in them now. They often are seen either punishing children or gifting them, and it is commonly believed they steal children and replace them with fake ones(One folk saying I like about this is when a kid is particularly ugly, "The Laumės are weird"). The treatment of the real kids depended on the treatment of the fake ones. Often the punishment is simply murder, one folk tale which shows both punishment and awards is this:
Once in a Lithuanian farm a overworked mother accidentally left her kid in the farm overnight, but the Laumės saw him and took care of the kid while dressing him in all kinds of silks and golds while singing a song. The mother took back the kid and was pleased. The neighbour, who was greedy and had overheard and saw the laumės awarding the kid, decided to leave her own one. So she did and listened at the night, but all she heard was a different song and them killing her child. Returning to the tales of child stealing, those who returned usually were very well treated and came back dressed in all kinds of silks. But their treatment is rarelly mentioned in folklore, with the one exception being the one I already mentioned saying that the childrens treatment depends on how the fake one was treated. It is added those stolen usually end up being rich and great kids. They are in many ways Baltic versions of the Greek nymphs, and yes there are tales where they marry human men. Probably one of the few cases where mythological and human worlds can meet, for afterall in a myth Perkūnas completelly destroys a goddess and her castles for falling in love with a human.
It is worth nothing that according to a theory by the folklorist Gintaras Beresnevičius, the rivarly between the thunderer Perkūnas and the trickster/god of the underworld Velnias stems from Velnias stealing his laumė wife.
Source: Mythical Lithuanian Folklore Creatures Note; I had written a more indepth bit about Laumės, but accidentally deleted half of it... so... OOF I'll try to get information on info why the tennent is good using Latvian mythology, but that's gonna take time as the Latvians ik aren't the least lazy people and the only book I have on Latvian mythology is from the interwar.
Albeit this is more about beings related to birth than the tennent