Effects of support battalions

[Denkt]

http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Support_Battalions_technology

1. Engineers: I think one entrenchment level reduce enemy combat effectiveness by 1%. Engineers seems to increase both attack and defense in fort (1939), rivers (1942) and urban (1945). To me it seems like engineers is mainly a defensive choice although it do help alot at making hard attacks easier.
2. Recon: Hard to say how much value reconnaissance have. It also mention a 25% speed bonus which sound crazy.
3. Military Police: Given that cavalry is rather cheap and give 5 suppression points per battalion, military police is valuable not because of production savings but because less cavalry behind mean more supplies to the front.
   
4. Maintenance: At 1945 level this company can completely eliminate attrition as the base reliability for most equipment are 80%. http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Attrition_and_accidents
   
5. Field Hospital: Can reduce manpower by up to half and it also conserve experience, two very valuable attributes: http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Experience#Unit_experience
   
6. Logistics: Probably the company with the most potential. If you are able to put one in every one of your divisions you can field up to 67% more divisions at the front compared to if you did not use logistical companies at all.
   
7. Signal: I think 1% initiative is worth 1% reinforcement chance and maybe 5-10% quicker planing speed. How valuable this company is depend on how valuable initiative is but if used correctly this company should allow you to advance quickly while having a strong planing bonus.

 

[Luckschaden]

How expensive are support battalions? I watched a bunch on WWW but can't remember it being mentioned.

Given how useful those seem, wouldn't you want to max out support for everything?

 

[Denkt]

Here is a list: http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Land_units_by_unit

Given how useful those seem, wouldn't you want to max out support for everything?

You can only have a maximum of 5 support battalions and that also include support artillery/anti tank/anti air who is not shown here.

 

[vector1]

The thing is that organisation for units with maxed out supports will be lower than units without, so you have to analyse whether it's worth adding more, or relying on the inherent increased fighting power of a division with higher organisation.

For example, Infantry has 60 organisation but supports have 0 to 20 organisation. Lets say we add support logistics, recon, signals, hospital and engineers to a 9 brigade infantry division. 9 infantry brigades have 60 organisation each but we have a total of 10+20+20+20+20 for the support brigades. That averages out to be 45 organisation for the division. As such, the trade off is simply around 33% more combat lasting power vs the inherent benefits of using the support brigades (faster reinforcements, better tactics, lower supply costs etc).

This is worse if you use support artillery, AA or AT since they have 0 organisation from the wiki.

Edit: This comparison is valid only against divisions of similar brigade count (14 infantry brigades vs 9 infantry + 5 support) All else being the same 9 infantry brigades should lose to 9 infantry brigades + 5 support brigades since the bigger division has more strength and overall organisation.

 

[Denkt]

Im pretty sure org don't work that way. You have to divide org damage by the number of battalions in the division so divisions with support battalions will last as long if not longer then similar divisions without them.

 

[vector1]

I would agree with you if support battalions had the same organisation as other combat brigades. As far as I know, while all brigades will be involved in taking damage it doesn't change the point that they have lower organisation and hence sustain less damage before running out of org, and since combat is resolved on a divisional level abstracting total organisation to average organisation would be acceptable.

My comparison is not accurate in that to be fair, we should compare a 9 infantry brigade, 5 support brigade divisions against a 14 infantry brigade division. You are quite right that all else being the same a larger division with support brigades should win, but divisions that are the same size with support ought to have less organisation than a division with full combat brigades. I will edit my post above to reflect this.

 

[Issac1709]

Here is a list: http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Land_units_by_unit



You can only have a maximum of 5 support battalions and that also include support artillery/anti tank/anti air who is not shown here.

But its a better idea to use regular art so it doesnt take up a support slot. No?

 

[Denkt]

But its a better idea to use regular art so it doesnt take up a support slot. No?

You can only have one support artillery per division while you can have alot of regular artillery with a division. So if you really want to concentrate firepower you need regular artillery.

 

[Ctanr]

i will probably give every division recon,maintenance,Field Hospital,Logistics and Signal because those 5 sound like the best one

 

[Bridger15]

Are you talking about having 5 support companies vs. having 5 extra combat battalions? In that case I think that it would definitely hurt your org. But if it's "support units vs. not having support units" it shouldn't negatively impact the org of the unit.

Support Art advantage is that it doesn't slow your division down. So it's useful for motorized/armor divisions.

 

[Ctanr]

and as a defensive france you should give every unit engineers for those sweet 15 points entrenchment and the 10% additional fort defense in 39'

 

[vector1]

This feels like we need to play the game to figure out the importance of artillery and other non infantry brigades. It's very telling that Daniel decided as GER in WWW to simply zerg everyone with waves of infantry. Given the opportunity cost of artillery (higher width, supply cost, production cost, 0 organisation and hidden terrain penalties), it may or may not ever be needed when you can replace it with more infantry to fill the line up to the width limit.

I'm guessing that artillery as a combat brigade will only need be used in specialised divisions to create breakthroughs like a cheaper version of armor and INF brigades will carry the line everywhere else, since for all the negatives, artillery has a way higher soft attack : width ratio than infantry making it situationally useful, but not when your width is not saturated yet.

@Bridger15 Also, since support brigades cost a lot more to produce than a infantry brigade and cost the same land combat exp to add, the opportunity cost is has to be compared to an extra combat brigade in normal divisions since that's the most direct alternative.

 

[Denkt]

Infantry have very poor stats, only really valuable for their org and HP but in all other areas there are much better choices as numbers is not that important as an effective army and an infantry only army is hardly effective.

The game encourage you to use combined arms.

 

[vector1]

I would not say that armies should be infantry only, but when considering the width of the front in combat, infantry has to make up the majority of the line. I wouldn't mind a full infantry division simply to hold the line while I concentrate the extra production into well equipped elite divisions to create breakthroughs. Overall it doesn't matter what the total strength of your army is, only what is the total strength in active combat. There's no point holding portions of the line using infantry divisions with large amounts of artillery for example, it might be better to concentrate all the excess artillery into a decisive point to breakthrough and encircle the enemy. This was generally the philosophy I played with in HOI3, using cheap units to hold the line and forcing a crushing breakthrough by spending the saved production on even more armor units.

 

[tommylotto]

The game encourage you to use combined arms.

How so?

 

[Denkt]

How so?

Each unit have their use. Example: infantry have good amount of org but very little firepower. Artillery have alot of firepower but very little org. Artillery combined with infantry have both decent org and decent firepower.

 

[vector1]

How so?

For example, if France knew Germany was bringing armor, a certain number of AT brigades to give hard attack would be much more valuable than adding infantry. Alternatively, to maximize firepower over width, France could bring extra artillery brigades on the defense. Combined arms simply means using something other than pure infantry to do the job, and simply because some combination of brigades are going to do the job that a pure infantry division can't do as well, especially with synergistic effects with the support brigades + support combat brigades.

 

[tommylotto]

Daniel loved his pure infantry divisions in taking down the big bad bear, and even his Japanese tank divisions were pure tank divisions. What are these synergistic effects of which you speak?

 

[vector1]

I'm sure with your experience in modding you understand clearly what combined arms means in HOI4 and how synergistic they can be so I assume you're being sarcastic.

For those who aren't as experienced, his use of infantry to cheese out the USSR was certainly very interesting but draining from a menpower perspective and if that's a concern different divisional designs may alleviate the problem. Combined arms can be done not only at a divisional level but at an army level so the use of armor together with infantry is certainly a more strategic example. Speaking from the divisional design level of combined arms, you can feel free to browse the wiki page and decide if any of those brigades are to your taste to mix and match in a combined arms division. Every type has a certain intended purpose and it's up to your strategy to build them into a division to achieve your intentions.

http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Land_units_by_unit

 

[Orlunu]

Sounds to me like Recon, Hospital and Maintenance are the no-brainers, with the remaining two slots to be occupied or unoccupied by whatever depending on role.

Also sounds like there's massive motive for going with big divisions rather than small in this game.