Effect of breakthrough and defence values

[Eusterw]

Hello!

I have a question regarding the breakthrough and defence values of a unit.

Let me try to explain the question with an example.

Hard and soft attack, are the values which defines, how many attacks a unit can do to hard or soft tagerts. For an example, let us take two infantry devisions, both with a soft attack of 100. If these two units battle each other, both will have 100 soft attacks. The breakthrough and defence values of each unit should be 50 breakthrough and 200 defence.

Now, if these two units battle each other, how can I estimate de outcome of the battle?

Perhaps something like 150 attack (100+50) against 300 defence (100+200), so that two attacking divisions, will eqal one defending division. Or is the outcome totally different. Maybee, because the units unse both values in balltle (even the defender can launch counter attacks).

So, how does the battle calculation take the breakthrough and defence values into account? Try to explain it in abstracted and simple words, if the formula is unknown.

The reason for the question: I want to get a better understanding on the effects of adding amour (with high breakthroug values) instead of atillery to a division.

 

[panzerzombie]

The HOI4 wiki states that "land combat is mostly similar to HOI3"

so I can probably cite the land combat section ( more details in: http://www.hoi3wiki.com/Land_combat )

Firing phase[edit]
This is where all unit damage is delivered by divisions on the front lines of combat (see combat width for more information). The following sequence of events occurs in the firing phase:

1. Each side of the battle randomly targets an enemy division, and will keep that target for the entire round.
2. Each side of the battle will choose to attack the "soft" or "hard" aspect of its target based on its softness: a target with 70% softness has a 70% chance of receiving a soft attack.
3. Both sides of the battle will fire at each other in sequence. The number of shots fired is based on the attack values, modified by attack effectiveness, rounded down.
4. The target then defends against the shots fired:
   1. Each division has defense points for the round, which are used to determined it the shot is a hit or a miss. The defender's "defense points", are its defense value multiplied by the defensive effectiveness, rounded down. When defending units fire shots back at the attacking unit, the attacker uses "defense points" from its toughness value multiplied by defensive effectiveness.
   2. Each division will use one defense point for every shot fired at it. A defense point used creates an 70% (FTM & TFH) chance the shot will miss.
   3. If a division has used all defense points in the round, then every shot fired has a 48% (FTM & TFH) chance of missing.

 

[Vidkjaer]

Breakthorugh is how many shots the division has a chance to avoid being hit. Defense is how many shots the division has a chance to avoid being hit when it is the defender.
Attacker = attacking from one province to another
Defender = Defender of the attacked province

On top of that there is still the random element that the defensive or breakthorugh value is in effect, so you cannot calculate eacatly how the battle will end. there is also terrain, experience, general skill and battle tactics that affect your stats.

Amor is very simple. If your divison has a higher armor value than the opposition divisions has piercing the opponent only does half damage. there is also the softness ratio which with tanks presents a hard target. When the opponent has a low number of hard attack they can only do very little damage to you.

The Armor and piercing value is an AVERAGE of each battalions in the divison, while soft/hard attack is the sum.

 

[Gort11]

Yeah, "breakthrough" seems analagous to the old "toughness" stat from previous games.

 

[Eusterw]

OK,

so a attacker division uses ALLWAYS their breakthrough value and the defender division ueses ALWAYS their defence value? So no counter attacks?

For my example this means:
a) the attacking division has 100 shots. And the defending division is able to avoid all shots, because of 200 defence (perhaps with a unknown chance)?
b) the defending division has 100 shots. And the attacking division is able to avoid 50 shots, because of 50 breakthrough (perhaps with a unknown chance)?
c) the attacking division will be hit at least 50 times, because 100 soft attack of the defending division is 50 higher than the 50 breaktrough of the attacking division?

@panzerzombie: I have not understand anything in your post. I even have no link to breaktrough and defence.

 

[Eusterw]

Yeah, "breakthrough" seems analagous to the old "toughness" stat from previous games.

So can you explain the effect of toughness?

 

[Zaku]

OK,

so a attacker division uses ALLWAYS their breakthrough value and the defender division ueses ALWAYS their defence value? So no counter attacks?

For my example this means:
a) the attacking division has 100 shots. And the defending division is able to avoid all shots, because of 200 defence (perhaps with a unknown chance)?
b) the defending division has 100 shots. And the attacking division is able to avoid 50 shots, because of 50 breakthrough (perhaps with a unknown chance)?
c) the attacking division will be hit at least 50 times, because 100 soft attack of the defending division is 50 higher than the 50 breaktrough of the attacking division?

@panzerzombie: I have not understand anything in your post. I even have no link to breaktrough and defence.

Read the hoi3 wiki on land combat. We can't explain it better than that.

So can you explain the effect of toughness?

It's the same as defense, but units use it when they are attacking.

 

[kalauer]

The HOI4 wiki states that "land combat is mostly similar to HOI3"

so I can probably cite the land combat section ( more details in: http://www.hoi3wiki.com/Land_combat )

Firing phase[edit]
This is where all unit damage is delivered by divisions on the front lines of combat (see combat width for more information). The following sequence of events occurs in the firing phase:

1. Each side of the battle randomly targets an enemy division, and will keep that target for the entire round.
2. Each side of the battle will choose to attack the "soft" or "hard" aspect of its target based on its softness: a target with 70% softness has a 70% chance of receiving a soft attack.
3. Both sides of the battle will fire at each other in sequence. The number of shots fired is based on the attack values, modified by attack effectiveness, rounded down.
4. The target then defends against the shots fired:
   1. Each division has defense points for the round, which are used to determined it the shot is a hit or a miss. The defender's "defense points", are its defense value multiplied by the defensive effectiveness, rounded down. When defending units fire shots back at the attacking unit, the attacker uses "defense points" from its toughness value multiplied by defensive effectiveness.
   2. Each division will use one defense point for every shot fired at it. A defense point used creates an 70% (FTM & TFH) chance the shot will miss.
   3. If a division has used all defense points in the round, then every shot fired has a 48% (FTM & TFH) chance of missing.

Maybe one addition: It seems that in 2.: They do not "choose" anymore, but an average attack out of hard and soft is created, based on the target's softness. In the end, this yields the same result for a sufficient amount of rounds, though.

 

[kalauer]

OK,

so a attacker division uses ALLWAYS their breakthrough value and the defender division uses ALWAYS their defence value? So no counter attacks?

For my example this means:
a) the attacking division has 100 shots. And the defending division is able to avoid all shots, because of 200 defence (perhaps with a unknown chance)?
b) the defending division has 100 shots. And the attacking division is able to avoid 50 shots, because of 50 breakthrough (perhaps with a unknown chance)?
c) the attacking division will be hit at least 50 times, because 100 soft attack of the defending division is 50 higher than the 50 breaktrough of the attacking division?

@panzerzombie: I have not understand anything in your post. I even have no link to breaktrough and defence.

a) with 200 DEF against 100 ATT, the defender has 70% chanve to avoid all damage. This 70% though, is imo unconfirmed for HoI4
b) the "unknown chance" is important, as it makes battles somewhat unpredictable (less for longer battles)
c) yes

 

[Vidkjaer]

So can you explain the effect of toughness?

Toughness is a HOI3 stat and is the ability for the attacker go avoid being hit. It is the "defending" value when attacking.

 

[Vidkjaer]

OK,

so a attacker division uses ALLWAYS their breakthrough value and the defender division ueses ALWAYS their defence value? So no counter attacks?

For my example this means:
a) the attacking division has 100 shots. And the defending division is able to avoid all shots, because of 200 defence (perhaps with a unknown chance)?
b) the defending division has 100 shots. And the attacking division is able to avoid 50 shots, because of 50 breakthrough (perhaps with a unknown chance)?
c) the attacking division will be hit at least 50 times, because 100 soft attack of the defending division is 50 higher than the 50 breaktrough of the attacking division?

@panzerzombie: I have not understand anything in your post. I even have no link to breaktrough and defence.

The landcombat mechanis is very complex. It took me a while to understand it fully for HOI3, so dont feel sad because you dont right away
You are asking for counterattacks. There is no such thing in the combat mechanic. I read it like you want the defender to be the attacker? this will not happen. Try to imagine the combat as an overall simulator where anything and everything can happen. Bonuses and penalties changes multiple times during the battle according to weather, air cover and battle tactics.

There is though a battle tactic named "counter attack". Its a tactic that the defender can choose during the combat (how they choose it is another complex mechanic depending on general skill, doctrine and recon). It only means that the defender gets a bonus, for example - 25% more damage.

Read the wiki for HOI3 on combat and you will get the idea if you read it carefully.

 

[Eusterw]

OK, I am getting a more clear view. Thanks to everyone.

Hard/Soft attack, are the shots you can fire. For these shots, it does not matter, if you are attacker, or defender.
As defender, every defence-point "blocks" one shot. As attacker, every breakthrough-point "blocks" one shot.

A blocked shot, has a chance of approximate 30% to hit (corrected) (percentage to be confirmed)
All other shots have a chance of approximate 50% to hit (corrected) (percentage to be confirmed)

Additionally to this, there are terrain, weather and other things.

So increasing hard/soft attack, is more importand, than increasing breaktrough and defence, because 30% of all shots do allways hit. And the two values reduces only the own damage by approximate 60% (50->30). (corrected -> so breaktrough is more importend, than fist mentioned, but still, firepower works allways and breaktrough/defence only als long, as the other side fires)

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Does anyone have a idea, how much damage is inflicted by every shot? 0,0001 HP?

 

[Secret Master]

So increasing hard/soft attack, is more importand, than increasing breaktrough and defence, because 50% of all shots do allways hit. And the two values reduces only the own damage by approximate 30% (70->50).

Not always.

Don't get me wrong, in HOI3, firepower is more or less king.

But, there are consequences to having low toughness (breakthrough in HOI4) in HOI3. Build a bunch of 2xMIL/2xARTdivisions and use them to attack like you would INF/ART. The differences will be obvious after six months of fighting; your MIL divisions with low toughness will take far more losses than the INF/ART divisions.

This is why I favor certain brigade types in certain situations. AC in HOI3 have a number of advantages, but one of them is a high toughness rating for a support brigade. You can create some very nice offensive divisions using AC to blunt the return fire from enemy units. Good luck stopping attacking panzer divisions with high toughness from the AC, high armor value from the tanks, and great all around firepower.

The advantages to certain builds are not readily apparent until you either fight a long campaign and have to spend IC to reinforce formations or you need units to continue an offensive even after taking fire during a previous attack.

 

[panzerzombie]

A blocked shot, has a chance of approximate 50% to hit (percentage to be confirmed)
All other shots have a chance of approximate 70% to hit (percentage to be confirmed)

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Does anyone have a idea, how much damage is inflicted by every shot? 0,0001 HP?

No, its the other way around:

A blocked shot has a 30% chance to hit ( 70% to miss )
and a non-blocked shot has a 50% to hit/miss
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For damage estimates look into hoi3 wiki, but it has not much meaning anymore since changing from 100% Strength to HP

 

[Eusterw]

No, its the other way around:

Thanks, corrected....