EEP Scandinavia (part deux)

[Arilou]

BTW. I was thinking about something:

How abouta few random events for the sound-due?
The Sound Due is hard to represent, I know, but I think the danes could use some spare cash... i was thinking of an event similar to this:

event = {
id = XXXX
trigger = {}
random = yes
country = DAN
name = "The Sound Due"
desc = "The Sound due proved to be a veritable gold-mine for danish monarchs, providing them with a steady source of income that by tradition belonged to them alone and could not be infringed upon by the Rigsråd or anyone else."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = october year = 1429 }
offset = 150
deathdate = { Was the Sound due abolished within the EU2 timeframe? Can't remember... }

action_a ={
name = "Raise the Sound Due!"
command = { type = relation which = SWE value = -50 }
command = { type = relation which = RUS value = -50}
command = { type = relation which = BRA value = -50 }
command = { type = relation which = KUR value = -50 }
command = { type = relation which = MEC value = -50 }
command = { type = relation which = NVG value = -50 }
command = { type = relation which = POL value = -50 }
command = { type = relation which = HOL value = -50 }
command = { type = treasury value = 200 } #Might be larger, or at least scaled#
}
action_b ={
name = "No, we have enough money for now"
command = { type = relation which = SWE value = 25 }
command = { type = relation which = RUS value = 25}
command = { type = relation which = BRA value = 25 }
command = { type = relation which = KUR value = 25 }
command = { type = relation which = MEC value = 25 }
command = { type = relation which = NVG value = 25 }
command = { type = relation which = POL value = 25 }
command = { type = relation which = HOL value = 25 }
}

 

[Sute]{h]

I agree that something has to be done with the Sound Due, but I would prefer simply moving the Mecklenburg CoT to Sjælland when the power of the Hansa declines. I can't recall when it was abolished, but it was after the rise of the United States. The US paid the Danish state a large amount of cash for lifting the Sound Due.

 

[Arilou]

Originally posted by Sute]{h
I agree that something has to be done with the Sound Due, but I would prefer simply moving the Mecklenburg CoT to Sjælland when the power of the Hansa declines. I can't recall when it was abolished, but it was after the rise of the United States. The US paid the Danish state a large amount of cash for lifting the Sound Due.

Yeah, increasing income is one thing it should do, but this was mainly just a way for the danes to get some extra cash (sort of danish only "Gift to the State" but with some negative relations) I see no problem with a CoT at Sjaelland though.

 

[Sute]{h]

I'm just not fond of random gifts to symbolise a steady income.

 

[Arilou]

Originally posted by Sute]{h
I'm just not fond of random gifts to symbolise a steady income.

The point is that the danish crown often did hike the Sound due to poay for temporary projects (like the danish intervention in the 30-years war, it was mostly financed by Christian raising the Sound Due, to the chagrin the rest of the world)

 

[Sute]{h]

Was these raises of the Sound Due temporary or permanent?

 

[Sikker]

The sound due was lifted in the 1860ies (I think ... but I am certain it was AFTER 1819).

I am not too fond of the random event thing either. The idea is good, but as it is a random event it will be much too, well, random, how much money Denmark will get. Also we will risk having a rich AI Denmark with incredibly poor relations with all it's neighbours.

Anyway, I don't know if it's fair to move the Mecklenburg CoT to Copenhagen. What would the justification for this move be? Of course we could just say Denmark needs the money ... but ...

@ Arilou, OK so you corrected me again ... I thought that Engelbrecht pretty much was running his own show (of course with KKB's blessing and all, but not enough to receive an actual title). Well, my Swedish history knowledge is lacking in parts, I admit that

 

[Sute]{h]

The justification is that all seaway trade in the baltic region passed trough the Sound where they had to pay Sound Due. While Helsingor never developed into a true Centre of Trade it did surely impart great wealth on the Danish nation though taxation of all the traders moving through the Sound. Much more so than some of the other CoTs in the game did on their nations. Further more most of the trade in Meckenburg died out in the late 1500 - early 1600 due to competion fra the Dutch plus the Danish hold on the Sound.

EDIT: I agree on the risks of the random event.

 

[Norrefeldt]

I add myself to the ones not being fond of the random event, better to raise the normal income, and I think this is already done, to reflect the changes. The Sound due gave different income depending on the trade, wars in nearby countries and so on, and the province give an average income. Much as any income in the game, that shifted depending on what happened in the world around.
I am normally *very* fond of random events but this also seems a bit to exploitable and there are several other places with dramatically shifted income, not reflected in the game.

 

[Arilou]

Originally posted by Sute]{h
Was these raises of the Sound Due temporary or permanent?

I'm pretty sure they were temporary.

But the point remains that Denmark is too poor! And something *Really* needs to be done about it. (ex. during the Union Wars most danish soldiers were german mercenaries while their swedish counterparts were conscripted peasants)

Sikker:
KKB and Engelbrekt were competitors, but yes, he recieved an official position from the Council... King Charles Chronicle has a pretty colourfull (though of course almost entirely fictional) summary of what happened:

"Å sen tog Engelbrekt Biskop Knut
Och hotade dra'n till allmogen ut."

 

[Norrefeldt]

Originally posted by Arilou

But the point remains that Denmark is too poor!

Compared to Sweden or what? I think Sweden is the problem in that comparison. But perhaps you didn't really mean that...

 

[Arilou]

Originally posted by mnorrefeldt
Compared to Sweden or what? I think Sweden is the problem in that comparison. But perhaps you didn't really mean that...

I mean both, Denmark is too Poor and Sweden too rich.

The "Perfect" way IMHO would be if Denmark Started out about twice or three times as rich as Sweden, equalling it sometime at GIIA's reforms and then starting to fall behind...

 

[Sikker]

I have a hard time seeing how Denmark can receive 2-3 as much wealth yearly as Sweden with the amount of provinces Denmark has - but any balancing out will be appreciated!

Well, I would, as usual, advocate a serious reduction in the tax incomes of the Finnish provinces, and maybe we could look through some of the others as well ... then later some events can come that can give some increase again to Sweden. Also remember to give those events to other nations that could come to posses those provinces and could justifiably be said to also explore those extra ressources. For instance Denmark/Norway in possesion of Bergslagen would also (most likely) find the coppermine, and a Russia in possesion of Finland should also be allowed to develop those provinces in time ... or at least that's what I think.

It would not make any sense to reduce the taxes of any Danish provinces as they didn't get any poorer. One could argue that the fish market of Skåne was in decline in 1419, but since most of the income was already gone by then, it won't makle much sense to reduce the value further by events. - Besides it was because of the loss of income there that Erik introduced the Sound Due.
Also the Danish provinces are not exactly poor as it is, so I don't know how much extra taxes we can justifiably squeeze out of them. A move of the CoT would of course help, and an annexation of Norway too ...

The latter reminds me: I was just playing a campaign as Denmark in 1.4 EEP. I don't think Norway ever got the event to be annexed by me ... VERY annoying. I tried to look through what went wrong, and it seems to me that Denmark can only get Norway if Sweden is a vassal during the Stockholm massacre??? Is that true?

 

[Arilou]

Well, some of those events could justifiably be given to eg. Denmark, BUT most of the swedish taxvalue increases was because of some (rather extensive) reforms, If Denmark are to get those events a trigger of pretty decent Centralization is needed at least, methinks.

 

[Sikker]

Sure ... of course noone else than Sweden should have the Wallons event and so forth ... It's just the events that could happen to anyone.

This also reminds me that if someone takes Sjæland (annexes our glorious nation) they should be given the choice to lift the Sound Due (loose whatever tax increase has been given) in exchange for good relations with England and whomever else is left to benefit from it.

 

[Arilou]

Yeah, might be a good idea.
As a province-based event?

 

[Sikker]

Yes. When Copehagen is owned by Sweden, Mecklenburg, Pommern, Teutonics (Prussia), England or France (Russia, Netherlands?), that nation gets the choice to remove the Sound Due and loose the tax value earlier gained (and the CoT if there is one).... and gain good relations with all the other mentioned nations.

If they choose to keep it they'll keep the Due (and the CoT if there is one). - If there should be any negative relation changes for keeping it they should be minor, shuch as -10 or so, since the Due is already in place.

 

[Sute]{h]

Originally posted by Sikker
The latter reminds me: I was just playing a campaign as Denmark in 1.4 EEP. I don't think Norway ever got the event to be annexed by me ... VERY annoying. I tried to look through what went wrong, and it seems to me that Denmark can only get Norway if Sweden is a vassal during the Stockholm massacre??? Is that true?

No. One has to declare Norway and Denmark indivisible in the Danish event "The Fate of Norway". This leads to a Norwegian event were Norway normally accepts the annexation. Even if they reject it at this time Denmark has another chance when the Stockholm massacre occurs.

 

[Sute]{h]

Originally posted by Sikker
This also reminds me that if someone takes Sjæland (annexes our glorious nation) they should be given the choice to lift the Sound Due (loose whatever tax increase has been given) in exchange for good relations with England and whomever else is left to benefit from it.

I really like this idea.

 

[Sikker]

Originally posted by Sute]{h
No. One has to declare Norway and Denmark indivisible in the Danish event "The Fate of Norway". This leads to a Norwegian event were Norway normally accepts the annexation. Even if they reject it at this time Denmark has another chance when the Stockholm massacre occurs.

Odd ... I specifically looked for this event, and nothing happened ... well, I must be going blind.
Also the Stockholm massacre only happens if Sweden is vassal of Denmark

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to play on without Norway then