Yes, but the beliefs that changed Buddhism to "something else" did come from China.
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Well they weren't as major as the changes in Tibet...and even so there were 3 major forms of budhism in china at the time, which one does Sino-Budhism represent?
It represents Budhism mixed with Chinese traditional beliefs. It doesn't represent any particular sect of Budhism, in the same way that Budhism doesn't represent any particular sect of Budhism.
Budhism is simply a "purer" form of Budhism and Sino-Budhism is more melded with pre-Budhist religious beliefs that are originally Chinese. There is no buddhist theological basis to worship your families ancestors, the spirits of nature, the emperor or the seven immortals, to argue this belongs to a particular sect of budhism is difficult since most of the buddhist sects accepted this behaviour from the lay members of society in the Chinese religious and cultural sphere.
Re: SE Asia
Thus, it is true that impressions of the place of Confucian peoples vis-avis the world is not enjoyed by people in SE Asia but that is due to their different political/geographical situation.
What is important is that the actual Confucian morals and teachings about respect, family and how people should behave, things that actually affects their way of life, is enjoyed by much of SE Asia, Vietnam being the one suggested only bcos the others is not as much strongly Confucian. The very strong Confucian influence makes it neccessary to be categorised into a different religion with different bouses/penalties in the game.
Anyway, if Korea and Japan is Confucian theres no reason to leave out Vietnam. The degree of Confucian influence is comparable in these countries.
I tend to disagree (sorry, dont take it personally). As i said, Confucianism is not even very concerned about how the world works or the place of Confucians vis-a-vis the world, but how people generally should behave in society. Thus the morals, ethics and codes of conduct. Impressions of the place of Confucian peoples vis-avis the world and racist attitudes to non-Confucians are much more due to the political centralisation/unification achieved by Shih Huang Di and the unique geographic position enjoyed by China than it is due to Confucian teachings/beliefs.
Thus, it is true that impressions of the place of Confucian peoples vis-avis the world is not enjoyed by people in SE Asia but that is due to their different political/geographical situation.
What is important is that the actual Confucian morals and teachings about respect, family and how people should behave, things that actually affects their way of life, is enjoyed by much of SE Asia, Vietnam being the one suggested only bcos the others is not as much strongly Confucian. The very strong Confucian influence makes it neccessary to be categorised into a different religion with different bouses/penalties in the game.
Anyway, if Korea and Japan is Confucian theres no reason to leave out Vietnam. The degree of Confucian influence is comparable in these countries.
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If this is to be, state religion for Vietnam should be Confucianism, but provs should be Buddhist.
I dont neccessarily agree. Confucian morals/values/teachings about respect, family and how people should behave etc is very much shared by the people in Vietnam in their way of life, and in my opinion more so than Buddhism. It's like saying much of China should be Buddhist but the state religion should be Confucian.
Well by this time that could very easily be argued...that's why we want to change the religious system in the east, to make it somewhat more credible.
Therefore, I find it quite sound if we just turn Confucianism into generalized Mahayana Buddhism and give it to Vietnam, China, Japan, etc.
But the "FACT" is that China, and Vietnam Japan etc, and the people living there, is more Confucian than they are Buddhist.
Yes but you then get the problem that Tibet is Mahayana buddhist, but not Confucian
Well, to me, it's even worse if u divided the East into two competing sects of Buddhism that, as in religions in Europe, cant coexist with each other. Because competition just did not happen to any level even comparable to that of Europe. it just takes out a lot of substance in the game to see China or Korea etc having a particular sect of Buddhism as their "state religion" while Tibet, thailand etc have the other sect and then trying to convert each other to their sect of Buddhism. THAT is worse under the system of religion we have in EUII.Originally posted by Phillip V
Fact, but not good with limit of religions in EUII.
yes, but is that wat we want for the whole of the Far East, like it is happening in EUII in the whole of Europe? i would think China trying to convert the tibetans into "their" form of Buddhism is quite unthinkable. Besides, the Vietnamese were trying to make the Khmer conform with Confucian values more than they want them converted into their particular sect of Buddhism anyway. So what makes it better to use the different sects to represent that conflict instead of Confucianism vs Buddhism?
Well Confuscianism isn't really a religious, its a philosophy. Neo Confuscian is a religion and its a religion that is really only practiced on the state level so i think Confuscianism being left it doesn't really fit with a 'religious' model. Its not the same as Budhism and Confuscian himself insisted his teachings weren't religious. The fact that they were later to an extent treated as such should be represneted by some other religion than confuscianism.
Yes but its attitude to religion has more in common with Thailand and Sri Lanka than it does with Japan.
Yes, i agree with that except the last sentence.
It is exactly bcos of the reasons u provided that we shouldnt categorise Eastern "religions" such that it would correspond with the meaning of "religion" in the West. Yes, Confucianism is not "religious" in the spiritual/supernatural/relation-with-nature part of the meaning of the word, but the extent that it affects nearly every aspect of people's way of life, thinking, values and influenced the course of history makes it the only logical system of belief that could be accorded with such importance in the game that is comparable to the "religions" of the West. To change it bcos it doesnt exactly match the definition of the word "religion", but sacrificing what it would give to the substance of the game, to me, would be a very bad choice. After all, how much do u think Buddhism affected China in terms of technology, expansion, domestic policies, province penalties etc etc (things that religion affect in the game) compared to Confucianism? I think very little.
That is why i say that we shouldnt abandon mentioning Confucianism (or at least imply it is) as the "religion" that gives all these effects in the game. Particular branches of Buddhism just didnt historically give these effects, even if they better matched the exact meaning of religion.
What you are describing is a philosophy then, not a religion...any philosophy not directly tied to a religious practice (and even some that are) can have the exact same influence on a people as what you describe. That's why i think confuscianism should be merged into something like Zen Budhism or dropped and be used for something like Sikhism which clearly is a religion that could be easily portrayed by the EU2 model.
There were many philosophy's in Chrisitanity and Islam, but we don't go and try to mimic them to the extent confuscianism is in the game.