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Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
The different branches of Buddhism is divided along the lines of their beliefs/practices and is not divded along the lines of whether there is Confucian influence. Therefore using the names of the branches would be misleading and underestimate the importance of Confucianism.

By the way, Mahayana Buddhism is a popular branch in East Asia so it is quite obvious that it can coexist in Confucian dominated areas. In fact Zen follows many of the Mahayana believes and practices.
You are correct that they can coexist basically because they are from the same branch, but Ch'an/Zen Budhism is heavily weighed in with Confuscian ideals which is why it appealed to the Japanese warrior class. The only other major Budhist sect at this time was Pure Land Budhism which is IMO further away from the ideals of Confuscianism/Budhism mix.
Originally posted by Aetius
I was very much against the idea of using Confucianism from the start as a word to describe the religious practices of China, Vietnam, Korea and Japan. I can't remember my counter proposal though. AFAIK the intent of Paradox is that Buddhism is the kind that exists in Thailand, Sri Lanka and Tibet. I don't think that the Thai and Lankese theological traditions follow the same as the Tibetan tradition, so any division using Buddhist theology is going to cause problems...

Is that what they said? it doesn't make sense. The kind that exists there, even in that time was a minority. It would be like basing chrisitianity off the sect that exists within egypt which split long before catholic/orthodox.
 

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Originally posted by Aetius
I was very much against the idea of using Confucianism from the start as a word to describe the religious practices of China, Vietnam, Korea and Japan. I can't remember my counter proposal though.
I tend to think that trying to classify "religions" in the Far East in the Western kind of perspective is bound to be inaccurate anyway, but "Confucianism" is the best term to describe it, unless u use some really general, effectively meaningless term like "Oriental", which i dont oppose.
AFAIK the intent of Paradox is that Buddhism is the kind that exists in Thailand, Sri Lanka and Tibet. I don't think that the Thai and Lankese theological traditions follow the same as the Tibetan tradition, so any division using Buddhist theology is going to cause problems...
I agree, this is what i meant. We shouldnt classify Far Eastern religion along the lines of different branches of Buddhism like for Islam and Christianity.
Originally posted by Jinnai
You are correct that they can coexist basically because they are from the same branch, but Ch'an/Zen Budhism is heavily weighed in with Confuscian ideals which is why it appealed to the Japanese warrior class. The only other major Budhist sect at this time was Pure Land Budhism which is IMO further away from the ideals of Confuscianism/Budhism mix.
The fact that they can coexist militates against classifying them as different religions. If they can coexist, the 20% penalty shouldnt be suffered.
 

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protestants and reformed could coexist, yet they get -30% penalty in EU2.

The question is, if the different eastern give different boni and mali in game terms, e.g. colonists/ traders/diplomats and research/stability/trade/production.
If not, you do not need to split different branches of budhism.
 

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I agree, this is what i meant. We shouldnt classify Far Eastern religion along the lines of different branches of Buddhism like for Islam and Christianity.
Then what would you do? I think the 'Oriental' religion used is worse than leaving it at the status quo.
The fact that they can coexist militates against classifying them as different religions. If they can coexist, the 20% penalty shouldnt be suffered.
As suo said, Protistants and reformed can conexist, but in adition, in most places so can Hindus and Budhist, Sunni most christians, etc. There are always exceptions, but there are also exceptions for people of the same religion not tolerating each other.
 

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Originally posted by suo
protestants and reformed could coexist, yet they get -30% penalty in EU2.

The question is, if the different eastern give different boni and mali in game terms, e.g. colonists/ traders/diplomats and research/stability/trade/production.
If not, you do not need to split different branches of budhism.
Yea, thats true. U even suffer penalty if u r CRC having catholic provinces, which is why i think CRC should be abolished anyway. But ur point is right, coexistence isnt the only question. And in answer to ur question, i think the different Eastern religions really did make a difference in game terms, but that is mainly bcos of Confucianism. U see, Confucianism really had a big impact in Oriental societies, not just the policies which can be adjusted by the DP sliders, but the whole societal framework and mindset. The difference that different branches of Buddhism made is nowhere near the difference that Confucianism made in Oriental societies.

Originally posted by Jinnai
Then what would you do? I think the 'Oriental' religion used is worse than leaving it at the status quo.
I agree. "Oriental" is not incorrect, but it's too general and effectively means nothing. So I think Confucianism isnt too bad given all the options, maybe expand it a bit and say "pro-Confucianism" so we r not just confined to the specific thing. But anyhow, that religion should encompass Vietnam, Sinkiang etc because those regions were Confucian dominated.
So what I would do: either leave it at Confucianism or rename it "pro-Confucianism" (or something similar to that) and change Vietnam and Sinkiang into that religion.
 

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I think we should ask Crook to host a poll for this question as this will most likely affect places outside the orient.

Anyway i still think that Ch'an/Zen budhism is the way to go as that what was the essence of that branch, it was heavily modified with confuscian doctrine.

So if you want i can see what he says (if he doesn't respond to this thread 1st). Just give me a list of what religions to change the possibilities are and how it would affect the game so people who would be voting have an idea.
 

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i m still not convinced in renaming it into different schools of Buddhism. The most important reason is that it would omit mentioning Confucianism, which is by far more influencial than Buddhism. A poll question for this would be a good solution as well as brings more people into the discussion. My options for change (from least to most radical) would be:

1) No renaming, but enlarge Confucianism to include provinces in Vietnam and most of Sinkaing (Chagatai Khanate in the GC).

Effect is that it greatly reduces the problem for countries, especially China, to suffer unhistorical penalties when holding provinces of a different religion because the enlarged Confucian zone reflects those countries' natural boundaries of expansion. But downside is that the names seem to ignore the mixture of the religions in the Far East.

2) rename Confucian to pro-Confucian and/or Buddhist to pro-Buddhist with the same enlarging.

Effect is the same as 1, plus adding the "pro" prefix strongly and obviously implies not only one Confucian/Buddist religion, but possible mixtures. Downside is the word "pro-Confucianism" or "pro-Buddhist" seems kind of arbitrary and doesnt fit in compared to all other religions.

3) Combine Buddism and Confucian into one "Oriental" religion.

Effect is that it not only greatly reduce, but completely eliminates any penalties suffered by controlling provinces with different religion in the Far East. Downside is that it ignores penalties that actually should be suffered historically, eg un-Confucian "barbarian" countries ruling Confucian "civilised" territories. Also, the term "Oriental" is too general and effectively means nothing.

Personally, i favour option 2, then 1, then 3.

I guess we are only considering the defining of religions in the Far East for the game now. I have more suggestions if u want to deal with changing the actual effects of those religions.
 

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How about Sino-Buddhist instead of Confucian? Obviously Buddhist, but not the same as Budhist. Having a "pro-" prefix looks bad IMO.
 

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Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
I guess we are only considering the defining of religions in the Far East for the game now. I have more suggestions if u want to deal with changing the actual effects of those religions.
I though we were going to redifine them right now anyway? If we are planning to do that, then we should do so now.
 

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Originally posted by Aetius
How about Sino-Buddhist instead of Confucian? Obviously Buddhist, but not the same as Budhist. Having a "pro-" prefix looks bad IMO.
Sino-Buddhist still doesnt seem right considering Confucianism is the clearly dominant strand of belief. i agree the "pro" prefix "looks" bad but cant come up with a better word with "Confucian" in it.

Originally posted by Aetius
So we have 5 ideas for the poll then?
So, yea, we have 5 ideas. Seems a bit too many for people to vote on and it would be unlikely to have a clear result. Dunno how to reduce it though.

Originally posted by Aetius
I though we were going to redifine them right now anyway? If we are planning to do that, then we should do so now.
I meant the actual characteristics as in the bonuses/penalties for colonists, technology etc for each religion. If we also do that, that would be too complicated. Just define the names first, then do the characteristics.
 

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Confucianism mixed with Buddhism isn't the only aspect of what Paradox said it meant with the religion Confucianism, it is supposed to include things like ancestor worship and the worship of spirits like Daoism and Shintoism. Both of these aspects are common to AFAIK China, Korea and Japan. Japanese homes often have a kamidana (spirit shelf) and a Butsudan (an shrine to their ancestors).
The reason I know what they intended was I asked specifically about these things
 

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I see. I mentioned only Confucianism and Buddhism bcos they are what the others are mainly concerned about. Confucianism is by far the most dominant form of belief, even worship of ancestors that you mentioned is derived from Confucianism. That is why i think that any name that doesnt give this impression is defective. By the way, I believe that Vietnam also have the similar kind of practices that u mentioned.
 

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Well it is the culimation of mostly budhism and confuscianism with in various areas different other beliefs and rituals entering in. That's why i say Zen (Budhism) is the best as it means a more structured heirachial form of budhism.
 

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Originally posted by Jinnai
Well it is the culimation of mostly budhism and confuscianism with in various areas different other beliefs and rituals entering in. That's why i say Zen (Budhism) is the best as it means a more structured heirachial form of budhism.
Yes but it isn't even the major form of buddhism in Japan let alone in Northwest Asia...
 

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Originally posted by Aetius
Yes but it isn't even the major form of buddhism in Japan let alone in Northwest Asia...
But neither is the form of Budhism the EU team has based Budhism for the game off of, ie the form in tibet.
 

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Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
Then why not just forget about different branches of Buddhism??
Exactly all we need is Buddhism and then a name for Buddhism plus chinese traditional beliefs: Sino-Buddhism, Chinese or like
 

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Originally posted by Aetius

Exactly all we need is Buddhism and then a name for Buddhism plus chinese traditional beliefs: Sino-Buddhism, Chinese or like
Except Sino-Budhism or whatever you want to call it isn't limited to china...
 

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SE Asia

Hi all,

I forgot to mention on the poll page that i do not believe Confucianism should be spread to Dai-Viet.
I realize that many of those ideas had spread to the region but i believe what made 'Confucianism' as we use it in this game is China.
Confucian thought outside China did not pattern the life in Vietnam the way it did in China.
China's combination of religions, historical empires leading back to the deeps of time and their feeling of their place in the world, their
racism, created the Confucianism that we use in this game. Those thought patterns and ideas did not exist outside of China except in Manchuria to an extent. Vietnam was effected by Confucian thought but the people were not 'Confucian' they were Buddhist.

Remember, we are using Orthodox to represent something like 3 different faiths, and Reformed and Protestant are being used to represent many different sub faiths. Sunnism is representing all of the different Sufi thought in the world.

Michael