EEP China

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Well, does anyone know if the Manchus in 1419 were pagan?


Hmm, well maybe we could design the event for the REB "country" so that if they control Beijing they trigger the Manchu invasion event for China but I don't know if that will work. Does anyone know if REB AI has the ability to handle events? Additionally there needs to be a 2nd set of events to ensure the chance of a Manchu takeover if China decided to keep its capital in the South instead of moving to Beijing.

 

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Originally posted by XieChengnuo
also what if a player-controlled (perhaps European) country were to take control of China's capital during the war? What if the AI were to choose option B instead of A? It wouldn't make any sense.

that could be changed, but for what countries would it matter? If its most of east asia, i'd say let it go because counting the revolters thats a lot of 'or' triggers to use.

 

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## Emperor Chongzhen Commits Suicide
event = {
id = 3913
trigger = { NOT = { exist = MCH }
NOT = { control = 649 } }
random = no
country = CHI
name = "EVENTNAME3913"
desc = "EVENTHIST3913"
style = 3

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1600 }
offset = 1000
deathdate = { day = 25 month = april year = 1644 }

action_a = { #Woe is us!
name = "ACTIONNAME3913A"
command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
command = { type = capital which = 654 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 240 value = 20 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
command = { type = independence which = MCH }
command = { type = sleepevent which = 10025 }
command = { type = sleepevent which = 10026 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07411 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07412 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07413 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07414 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07415 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07416 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07417 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07418 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07419 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07420 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07421 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07422 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07422 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07423 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07424 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07425 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07426 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07427 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07428 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07429 }
}
}

I added the ability for it to start anytime from 1600-1644 and the appropriate sleepmonarch commands, but i do not have a hold of the exiled monarchs to add for their replacement.

Also, if you want me to i can set the trigger conditions so it doesn't happen for european powers taking the capital, but i need to know every possible country that would be apporitate to trigger this, including ahistorical ones for this time period.

 

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Originally posted by Fate
Well, does anyone know if the Manchus in 1419 were pagan?

Do u mean pagan as in believing in many Gods as opposed to only one God?? If so, yes, but this is also the case in many East Asian countries including China. Or do u mean pagan vs Confucianism as in the game?? If so, no, the Manchus definitely should be classified Confucianism not pagan in the game.

 

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Originally posted by Fate
Additionally there needs to be a 2nd set of events to ensure the chance of a Manchu takeover if China decided to keep its capital in the South instead of moving to Beijing.

I guess we could still use the same event for the fall of Ming even if China decided to keep its capital in Nanjing. Beijing's extreme importance as a defence point as a gateway to the Northern plains means that if Beijing falls in enemy hands, the Manchus could easily takeover Northern China. That was actually a main reason why they decided to move the capital to Beijing. The only thing is that if Nanjing was the capital, it is very unlikely that Ming would surrender immediately.
But we will need another set of events for the emperor's suicide in Nanjing.

 

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Silly me, I didn't know that this could be done. Instead of doing all those events for REB tag we can just add "data" to the control trigger. So now it would look like this:

control = { province = 649 data = REB }

Now this event will ONLY trigger if rebels control the capital.


The reason I ask about the Manchus being pagan is because of this religon map:

 

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i'm reasonably sure that the Manchus were Buddhist in religion. A buddhist monk went to them a long time ago and converted them to Buddhist.

 

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generally taoism took a backseat once budhism was introduced and what role it did play in the lives of the chinese/manchurian peoples is minimal and not enough worth giving all the disadvantages to the state which definatly wasn't taoist...to be so would be somewhat contradictory.

 

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About the map, i think the difficulty is again in trying to universally classify different kinds of religion in the world through a Western perspective. Confucianism is at completely different angles from other Western religions. It is very easy to say that some society practices Christianity as opposed to Islam but it is a completely different story to say whether the society "practices" Confucianism.

The map is not much focused in the Far East anyway. I am sure the Liaotung Peninsula where it says "after 1368" is Confucian centuries b4 1368. That area is under Chinese cultural control ever since China came into existence with the unification by the First Emperor. I am also sure most of the area where it says "Sinkiang" is Confucian. Japan and Vietnam is also largely Confucian, as the people in the EEP Japan thread says.

The area of Manchuria had long been under Confucian influence by the Chinese probably beginning during the Han dynasty, but defintely by the AD 300s during the great turmoil and cultural assimilation period. Most notably the Northern Wei dynasty was founded by a tribe which resided in the Manchuria area and Northern Wei became so heavily influenced by China that it officially pushed for assimilation. Tang's great prosperity and power definitely influenced the Manchurian area. During the two Sung dynasties, all of Liao, Jin and Western Xia (controlling Manchuria and Sunkiang) heavily adopted Chinese Confucian cultural practices. The Manchus during the Ming dynasty, which later established Qing, were descended from the same group that founded Jin. The fact that the Manchus in 1415 is heavily Confucian is reflected by the later ease with which the Qing modelled the Chinese system of government and the further assimilation of the Manchus linguistically and racially such that now the Manchurian nationality barely exists

 

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Originally posted by Jinnai
Um as far as i know renaming is impossible. The beta testers wanted to do that with protistant for pre-martin luthar eras but they couldn't.

Actually, if u read this thread, Changing names of the religions - is it possible?, it seems that renaming is possible. But then again the problems that I mentioned that may arise with merging Buddhism and Confucianism still exists. So perhaps the best solution for the religion problem is to enlarge the area with Confucianism to include all areas with beliefs that Confucianism tolerates.

 

[Shadowstrike]

The problem with casting in stone the Oriental religions is that unlike Europe, religion was much laxer in the Orient. There were forced beliefs and poeple could just mix and match gods or spirits however they choose. Confusicism is concerned more with respect. For instance, it calls children to respect their parents, people to respect their Emperor, and so forth. It doesn't have any churches or priests, but its more like a way of thinking. Confusism is very conservative, and wary of new ideas. Taoism is a little more occult, with a stronger emphisis on gods and spirits. I can't really say about Buddhism, because I don't know very much about it. Most people in China had a Confucist mindset (which made them isolationist, nationalist and strongly convinced of their own superiority even after Chinese power ad waned), and held a varying degree of Taoist and Buddhist beliefs. For these reasons it is diffuclt for us to strictly define which provinces belongs to which religion, unlike the more clear cut lines between Catholism and Protestantism.

Merging Buddhism and Confusism is probably a good idea though. Its difficult to physically distinguish the two anyhow - better to have a single "Oriental" religion, just to reflect its distinctiveness from the other religions of the world. We should take the extra religion slot and use it to distinguish between North American and African "pagan" nations.

As for Chinese "cultures" I'm at a loss for what to do. Ethnically, the Chinese are very unified - you could pull a person off the street from Beijing and another from Guangzhou and they would both tell you that they belong to teh same ethnic group. However, linguistically Chinese dialects are very different. Mandarin sounds to a Cantonese speaker like English to Italian. Its harder to identify now, especially after Mandarin was imposed on the whole nation during the Communist regine, but the Chinese language is slightly different each village over. Over the vast distances, people cannot understand each other (or do so barely). As such, making a single "han" culture is akin to making a "western european " culture that covers everything from Portugal to Poland. However, seperating them into different cultural groups would also be "incorrect", especially the current solution with cantonese and han. The Cantonese are a subgroup of the Han Chinese majority.

 

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Hmm well for the religion, i would keep Budhism as a religious option. It still did play a lot of role on its own in india and the surrounding areas, but just change Confuscianism to Oriental or something else.

 

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Actually i think the entire oritent if we get rid of confuscianism should become pagan or budhist to start out with an change the religion to Sikhism, Taoism or Shintoism.

 

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Actually i just had a 3rd idea for a replacement religion (this is my last hopefully till someone else posts on this forum).

Anyway we could split Budhism into 2 like the rest of the major world religions being split.

Anyway whatever happens, budhism should remain as a seperate religion. Its impact to india and parts of western persia and SE Asia are too great.

 

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Originally posted by Jinnai
Hmm well for the religion, i would keep Budhism as a religious option. It still did play a lot of role on its own in india and the surrounding areas, but just change Confuscianism to Oriental or something else.

I agree with this. Although it is true that historically Oriental religions tend to blend and coexist, that has nearly always happened with Confucianism as the dominant belief. Because of the superiorty mindset promoted by Confucianism, it is unlikely that Confucianism would coexist peacefully with another religion trying to dominate. This why invading cultures did not prevail and always had to convert themselves to Confucianism in Chinese history. Places that are predominantly Buddhist but with little Confucian influence (India, Tibet, etc) therefore shouldnt come under the Oriental/Confucian religion. The dividing boundary between "Confucianism"/"Oriental" vs "Buddhism" should be where Confucianism is dominant and where it is not.

Actually i think the entire oritent if we get rid of confuscianism should become pagan or budhist to start out with an change the religion to Sikhism, Taoism or Shintoism.

If a specific kind of belief is to be named for the religion in the East, (instead of a general name like "Oriental") I think nothing descirbes it better than "Confucianism", therefore Confucianism shouldnt be got rid of.

As for the culture, it is true that the difference in local tongue within China may be great, but spoken language is only a part of culture which is other than that rather uniform throughout China. Not to mention that the Chinese have a common written language and spoken Mandarin is used throughout China in the cities and upper class.

 

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Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
I agree with this. Although it is true that historically Oriental religions tend to blend and coexist, that has nearly always happened with Confucianism as the dominant belief. Because of the superiorty mindset promoted by Confucianism, it is unlikely that Confucianism would coexist peacefully with another religion trying to dominate. This why invading cultures did not prevail and always had to convert themselves to Confucianism in Chinese history. Places that are predominantly Buddhist but with little Confucian influence (India, Tibet, etc) therefore shouldnt come under the Oriental/Confucian religion. The dividing boundary between "Confucianism"/"Oriental" vs "Buddhism" should be where Confucianism is dominant and where it is not.

If a specific kind of belief is to be named for the religion in the East, (instead of a general name like "Oriental") I think nothing descirbes it better than "Confucianism", therefore Confucianism shouldnt be got rid of.

I am thinking then that we should rename Budhism and Confusciansim to 2 different branches of Budhism, one with Confuscian influence and one without.

 

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Originally posted by Jinnai
I am thinking then that we should rename Budhism and Confusciansim to 2 different branches of Budhism, one with Confuscian influence and one without.

What would be a good name for these two kinds of beliefs?? I tend to think that the kind of Buddhism with Confucianism domminant should just be called Confucianism or pro-Confucianism for the sake of its dominance, otherwise call it Oriental to avoid confusion. It's hard to come up with a specific name for Buddhism-without-Confucian-influence.
Anyhow, the area with the Oriental or pro-Confucian religion should encompass Vietnam and most of Sinkiang (Chagatai Khanate).

 

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Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
What would be a good name for these two kinds of beliefs?? I tend to think that the kind of Buddhism with Confucianism domminant should just be called Confucianism or pro-Confucianism for the sake of its dominance, otherwise call it Oriental to avoid confusion. It's hard to come up with a specific name for Buddhism-without-Confucian-influence.
Anyhow, the area with the Oriental or pro-Confucian religion should encompass Vietnam and most of Sinkiang (Chagatai Khanate).

Buddhism-without-Confucianism:
Mahayana (Budhism)
Budhism-with-Confucianism:
Ch’an OR Zen (as it is known today) (Budhism)

 

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Originally posted by Jinnai

Buddhism-without-Confucianism:
Mahayana (Budhism)
Budhism-with-Confucianism:
Ch’an OR Zen (as it is known today) (Budhism)

The different branches of Buddhism is divided along the lines of their beliefs/practices and is not divded along the lines of whether there is Confucian influence. Therefore using the names of the branches would be misleading and underestimate the importance of Confucianism.

By the way, Mahayana Buddhism is a popular branch in East Asia so it is quite obvious that it can coexist in Confucian dominated areas. In fact Zen follows many of the Mahayana believes and practices.

 

[Aetius]

I was very much against the idea of using Confucianism from the start as a word to describe the religious practices of China, Vietnam, Korea and Japan. I can't remember my counter proposal though. AFAIK the intent of Paradox is that Buddhism is the kind that exists in Thailand, Sri Lanka and Tibet. I don't think that the Thai and Lankese theological traditions follow the same as the Tibetan tradition, so any division using Buddhist theology is going to cause problems...