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M@ni@c

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Aha. An expert on the matter. What would you change the stats of Confucianism to? Does Confucianism really deserve a technology penalty? After all, China was the most advanced region in the world for very long. Who knows, if the Ming didn't gain power, their technological advance wouldn't have slowed down.
 

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Originally posted by M@ni@c
Aha. An expert on the matter. What would you change the stats of Confucianism to? Does Confucianism really deserve a technology penalty? After all, China was the most advanced region in the world for very long. Who knows, if the Ming didn't gain power, their technological advance wouldn't have slowed down.

Confucianism does deserve a technological penalty.

It's not that Confucianism opposes progress and technological advance per se, it's mainly the effect of Neo-Confucianism, which dates two hundred years back (thus, whether or not the Ming gained power, there would have been a slow down)

Neo-Confucianism stresses Chinese superiority (a kind of nationalism, i guess), which made it very difficult for the Chinese to accept ideas from other people, even if those ideas were better. (eg. while the Chinese had rifles and cannon way before the Westerners, Westerners learned from each other various formations and smolting techniques, whereas in the Far East, everyone learned from China, and China learned from... well... itself.)

So in EU terms, that means the neighbour bonus should be greatly lessened, but since we can't do that, Sunzi's way is best.

Neo-Confucianism also emphasizes a very very conservative viewpoint. So kids listen to their parents or else. Subjects listen to their rulers or else. Wives listen to their husbands or else. This led to a stagnation of the ideas in Chinese society. Just look at today - a lot of the voice of change in the past hundred years for China came from the students.
 

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I agree that Ming did in some ways contribute to stagnation. By abolishing the prime minister and establishing the "eastern factory" (kind of secret police) the Ming concentrated power in the emperor so strongly that reinforced to the extremely conservative mindset that XieChengnuo mentioned. Not to mention the extensive corruption and great inefficiencies that this kind of governement gives rise. But I still think that if a less alienating kind of government like Tang came to power instead of Ming, the mindset would still be a great obstacle, and u would have to change it slowly, not just with a stupid event.

The technological penalty i mentioned mainly arises out of the need to increase the starting technology level of China and its neighbors, and less because of the theoretical discussion. The ships that Zheng He sailed on are definitely at least close to the level of Galleons. If we are really to increase Chinese naval technology in 1418 to close to Lv 16, we would definitely have to impose a greater technological penalty than the present penalty. I havent tested anything yet but if China starts off with say Lv 13 and Europe Lv 1, I guess the technological penalty needs to be close to double (-10 --> -18??) to reflect Europe's rapid advance. The problem with this game is that Europe is kind of made the default power when in reality Europe's rapid advance is the exception to the rest of the world, not the other way round. We cant increase Europe's technological bonus as the alternative solution bcos that would alter the whole pace of the game. Increasing China's starting lv and the penalty also implies doing this to middle east countries but to lesser degrees as u go further West.

I think increasing the starting lv and imposing a higher penalty actually better reflects the initial Chinese supremacy and then its difficulty in trying to catch up with the West as it lags further and further behind.
 

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I agree, Sun Zi. Currently the (indeed unrealisticly radical) Zheng He event changes China's tech group to Muslim. Perhaps this can be further taken down to Exotic. This would allow Ming Neo-Confucianist China to stagnate and let them start with high tech without causing too much game inbalance.
I'm currently reading some 800-page book about China's history. I have almost finished the Middle Ages by now. Perhaps I can add some more ideas after I've read the Ming era.:)

XieChengnuo, thanks for the info on confucianism. It's unfortunately about the only world 'religion' I know little to none about. Still I think the tech penalty of confucianism is exaggerated compared to the other religions. Europeans also gained a serious superiority complex. And counterreformed catholicism was also very conservative and anti-humanist. Just look at Galileo's and Copernicus' fate. So why do they only get a -3 tech penalty? I say give Ming China the exotic tech group, but decrease the Confucianism tech penalty. Likewise with Hinduism and Buddhism.
 

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Nice for u to be reading a Chinese history book, keep it up!!

Moving tech groups can be a solution, i guess, but i still dont think it should come in an event. The most that the Zheng He event should be able to do is perhaps to slide the DP by 1 level, and thats not enough if we want to increase the initial tech by so much. So maybe just make Ming exotic at the very start. Or just increase the penalty for Confucianism instead of all the fuss.

It's not that i think the actual Confucian philosophy inhibits technology more than say counter reformed catholics, it's just that i think it's the best way to simulate the rapid rise of Europe overtaking all other civilisations, WITHOUT altering the game pace. Is there any way to change the tech group modifier?? if there is, it would be the better and more realistic option than changing the religious modifier. I would tend to increase all the tech group modifiers relative to Europe but give them initial advantage. If that can be done then we can make the religious modifier more realistic.

It's hard to say whether confucianism realistically affects technological progress more or less than catholics. To start with, Confucianism isnt even really a religion in the general sense. It doesnt really seek to explain how the world works, it's just a kind of model for a way of life. So "religion" in the East is not really as important as the West, and in the Eastern perspective it would certainly be weird to categorise Confucianism as a state religion along with Buddhism, etc, as alternatives and give provinces a penalty because they practice Buddhism "instead of" Confucianism. In Chinese history, there has really never been conflicts between the so called "religions" of Confucianism and Buddhism, basically bcos there is little inconsistency between the two ideas so they can coexist. The only conflicts were between Buddhism and Taoism. Relative to the West, Confucianism is not really that interested in sciences and emphasises on humanities, but the fact that it strongly favours academic as opposed to physical prowess perhaps shows that it supports technological progress.
 

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i agree with Sunzi's statements. Except that Confucianism was actually considered one of the three religions of China - together with Daoism and Buddhism.

But as a state religion in EU2, I don't believe it really fits very well. After all, a Confucian country with Buddhist provinces definitely should NOT give a state penalty. And there shouldn't be any such thing as Confucian provinces, because most of the Confucian principles related to the state, and relationships between people, as Sunzi pointed out, not an explanation of the world. If they could give no penalty for a Confucian state with Buddhist provinces, that would be best, but as for the tech thing, it would be to increase the Confucian techgroup. After all, the exotic techgroup is a bit harsh, and we should be able to give the Chinese the ability to get out of this slump out of their own effort, not through a simple event effect.

Oh, where are my manners?!? Welcome to the board Sun Zi!
 

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I'm already at page 200 or so. In some cases it's really hard to remember! Ch'i, Ch'in, Chin, Wu, Wei, Han, Chou... And they all seem to have had a western, eastern etc dynasty. Anyway, I at least get a general idea on the different state models and cultural changes.

I'm afraid the tech group modifier is hard-coded. As far as I know, only Paradow could change that in a patch. But since they said they wouldn't add any new features in 1.06... So I guess we're stuck with the current unrealistic tech model. However I do believe it was possible to change the religious tech modifier. Though I don't remember right now which file it was. I'll search for it.

I haven't arrived at the eleventh century yet, but wasn't there a Chinese cultural "Renaissance" then that reduced the importance of Buddhism?

Also, I read there were many populations movements in Legalist states to eg the arid steppes. Isn't this some sort of colonization? So do they really deserve a colonization penalty? Of course they shouldn't move to America, but this is fixed in patch 1.05. In a 1.05 game I was playing, they were happily colonizing the Siberian corridor. (I constantly kicked Russian butt, so they didn't have a chance to move to Siberia:cool:) Anyway, the fact that they don't earn extra colonists compared to the European religions already is a penalty.
 

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Originally posted by M@ni@c
I haven't arrived at the eleventh century yet, but wasn't there a Chinese cultural "Renaissance" then that reduced the importance of Buddhism?

That's true. It began in the ninth century, when Confucianism and Buddhism were big rivals. In the late Tang (or in your case, T'ang) Dynasty, Confucianism began to be big again and Buddhism began to lose its influence. Remember that this is in the court and not in the provinces. The eleventh century saw the rise of Neo-Confucianism.

Although I'm not quite done that era, you can follow along your book, with my web page (blatant plug), which is on Chinese History - Chinese eyes. (end blatant plug)


Also, I read there were many populations movements in Legalist states to eg the arid steppes. Isn't this some sort of colonization? So do they really deserve a colonization penalty? Of course they shouldn't move to America, but this is fixed in patch 1.05. In a 1.05 game I was playing, they were happily colonizing the Siberian corridor. (I constantly kicked Russian butt, so they didn't have a chance to move to Siberia:cool:) Anyway, the fact that they don't earn extra colonists compared to the European religions already is a penalty.

A large (perhaps the biggest) problem with this is that... there are no arid steppes in EU2. Mongolia, a very important nation still in Ming times, is not there, and the gobi desert, for the most part, is covered in PTI. Considering that the Manchus cover all of Manchuria, the only place for China to colonize really would be in Siberia (which, as you noted, happens). This didn't happen IRL AFAIK.

But China, and all the confucian nations never really colonized quite so vigourously at all...
 

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Aha, so they were rivals of some sort. Anyway, I can't open your web page. I'll try again tomorrow.

About the Buddhism/Confucianism point. We're stuck with the state religion system. But I may have a solution to make sure Buddhist provinces don't give a penalty to Confucianist states. It is rather radical though: make Confucianism and Buddhism the same religion. Just make some changes in that religion file I talked about. Rename it Buddhist/Neo-Confucianist or something similar. Paradox made the stats of the religions almost the same, so purely gametechnical spoken, it won't make much of a difference. This also frees up a spot for another religion/philosophy/set of rules. Taoism? A less conservative Confucianism without a tech penalty? Perhaps some events could be written so a player who wants to make China a world power again can slowly switch his country to the innovative confucianist 'state religion'. Perhaps it's totally unrealistic, but I would just love to have the possibility in EU2 to make China be the most advanced region in the world again.:) Of course not with one Zheng He event, but a whole series of events and a lot of trouble along the decades and centuries long way.
 

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A large (perhaps the biggest) problem with this is that... there are no arid steppes in EU2. Mongolia, a very important nation still in Ming times, is not there, and the gobi desert, for the most part, is covered in PTI.
Thats why i think we need to create some event that occurs constantly to at least kind of show that Mongolia is there threatening borders etc.

About the religion, merging Buddhism and Confucianism might be a good idea, but some questions remain. Seeing that we decided there should not be a 25% penalty for China with Buddhism, should there be a penalty for China with Islamic or Hindu provinces?? I guess i m asking whether Confucian values could coexist also with Islam and Hinduism. Also, if a strongly Buddhist state rule a province that is strongly Confucian, (eg Tibet ruling Chinese provinces), should the 25% apply?? Merging the religions affects these 2 questions.
But I guess these are minor problems which only apply to some western provinces in China or when some not very probable situations occur (eg China invading India or Indonesia). Without much historical reference, i guess we can pretend the effect on these situations to be right.

Then theres the problem of naming the new religion. I tend to favor just a general name like "Oriental" because combining the two names (eg Buddhist/Neo-Confucianist) is too cumbersome as it ignores states with lesser degree of Confucian influence (eg Tibet, Burma).

The problem with giving Taoism the free spot is that if Taoism deserves a free spot, so would Buddhism, but we already decided that Buddhism should not be independent. So i dunno wat should fill up the new spot, maybe Shinto as a possibility for Japan to let it rapidly catch up??

The problem i find with trying to make the rise of China possible is the historical implications. One should remember that Europe's rise is not the norm, but the exception of the world. Even after Ming there was no noticeable change in the margin that China was ahead of the non-europe world. The rest of the world continued to do what they were doing while Europe steamed ahead. So if China could continue to be a great power, either Europe didnt rise (which is impossible for the game) or China had to rise as fast as Europe (which is again highly improbable historically). Although i think it may be within historical reality to have the oppressive Ming overthrown thru a series of events (maybe triggered once the DP reached a certain liberal level) so China could perhaps advance faster, but that still should never approach the pace of Europe's ascendency.
 

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Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
About the religion, merging Buddhism and Confucianism might be a good idea, but some questions remain. Seeing that we decided there should not be a 25% penalty for China with Buddhism, should there be a penalty for China with Islamic or Hindu provinces?? I guess i m asking whether Confucian values could coexist also with Islam and Hinduism. Also, if a strongly Buddhist state rule a province that is strongly Confucian, (eg Tibet ruling Chinese provinces), should the 25% apply?? Merging the religions affects these 2 questions.
But I guess these are minor problems which only apply to some western provinces in China or when some not very probable situations occur (eg China invading India or Indonesia). Without much historical reference, i guess we can pretend the effect on these situations to be right.

Then theres the problem of naming the new religion. I tend to favor just a general name like "Oriental" because combining the two names (eg Buddhist/Neo-Confucianist) is too cumbersome as it ignores states with lesser degree of Confucian influence (eg Tibet, Burma).

The problem with giving Taoism the free spot is that if Taoism deserves a free spot, so would Buddhism, but we already decided that Buddhism should not be independent. So i dunno wat should fill up the new spot, maybe Shinto as a possibility for Japan to let it rapidly catch up??
Um as far as i know renaming is impossible. The beta testers wanted to do that with protistant for pre-martin luthar eras but they couldn't.

Anyway if it were possible, i wouldn't merge them, i'd simply drop confuscianism. Neo-Confuscianism wasn't practiced much except in Japan...sure it was to some extent in china, but not like over there where the whole of government was based on neo-confuscian ideas.

I'd replace is with Taoism (but then being a secular taoist i'm partial to that). Shintoism is essentially an advanced nature worship religion and it was mixed heavily with Budhism and bits of Confuscianism for flavor.

The problem i find with trying to make the rise of China possible is the historical implications. One should remember that Europe's rise is not the norm, but the exception of the world. Even after Ming there was no noticeable change in the margin that China was ahead of the non-europe world. The rest of the world continued to do what they were doing while Europe steamed ahead. So if China could continue to be a great power, either Europe didnt rise (which is impossible for the game) or China had to rise as fast as Europe (which is again highly improbable historically). Although i think it may be within historical reality to have the oppressive Ming overthrown thru a series of events (maybe triggered once the DP reached a certain liberal level) so China could perhaps advance faster, but that still should never approach the pace of Europe's ascendency.
Yes i agree, with most of it. China's always veiwed the ocean as a safe domain so they wouldn't strengthen their navy as much, plus they would be starting out fairly well already. For infrastructure, except for the great wall and the forbidden city there wasn't too much emphasis put into developement. Same thing for land. If they were thrown over i would see trade being able to jump as quickly. Maybe also land.
 

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Originally posted by M@ni@c
Taoism? A less conservative Confucianism without a tech penalty?
As a secular taoist i haveto say confucianism and taoism are completely opposite in almost every way possible.
 

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Originally posted by Jinnai

As a secular taoist i haveto say confucianism and taoism are completely opposite in almost every way possible.

Yes, I know that. It was just a second suggestion to fill in the empty Buddhism spot, besides the other suggestion of Taoism. My idea was Ming China would start with the Oriental religion, which has a large tech penalty. However, through a series of events, triggered by eg a Innovative DP, one could switch to another kind of confucianism, with similar effects except for the removal of the large tech penalty. This would of course increase revolt risk; you would have to convert regions who stick to the old belief; etcetera. In short, a challenge for the player.
 

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Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
About the religion, merging Buddhism and Confucianism might be a good idea, but some questions remain. Seeing that we decided there should not be a 25% penalty for China with Buddhism, should there be a penalty for China with Islamic or Hindu provinces?? I guess i m asking whether Confucian values could coexist also with Islam and Hinduism. Also, if a strongly Buddhist state rule a province that is strongly Confucian, (eg Tibet ruling Chinese provinces), should the 25% apply?? Merging the religions affects these 2 questions.
But I guess these are minor problems which only apply to some western provinces in China or when some not very probable situations occur (eg China invading India or Indonesia). Without much historical reference, i guess we can pretend the effect on these situations to be right.

Then theres the problem of naming the new religion. I tend to favor just a general name like "Oriental" because combining the two names (eg Buddhist/Neo-Confucianist) is too cumbersome as it ignores states with lesser degree of Confucian influence (eg Tibet, Burma).

The problem with giving Taoism the free spot is that if Taoism deserves a free spot, so would Buddhism, but we already decided that Buddhism should not be independent. So i dunno wat should fill up the new spot, maybe Shinto as a possibility for Japan to let it rapidly catch up??

The problem i find with trying to make the rise of China possible is the historical implications. One should remember that Europe's rise is not the norm, but the exception of the world. Even after Ming there was no noticeable change in the margin that China was ahead of the non-europe world. The rest of the world continued to do what they were doing while Europe steamed ahead. So if China could continue to be a great power, either Europe didnt rise (which is impossible for the game) or China had to rise as fast as Europe (which is again highly improbable historically). Although i think it may be within historical reality to have the oppressive Ming overthrown thru a series of events (maybe triggered once the DP reached a certain liberal level) so China could perhaps advance faster, but that still should never approach the pace of Europe's ascendency.

I agree. Events should be made in this EEP to reflect the Mongolians and their influence on Ming foreign policy.

Sunzi is right. There could be a lot of forseeable problems by combining the two religions into one. There are two main groups of Buddhists. This might cause adversity. Imagine if China successfully invaded and conquered an Indian province with a Buddhist population there would definitely be a problem with religion. Combining the two religions would take this away. The example with Tibet is also a valid statement.

We also have to make not that China is pretty rich already as it is, and removing this culture penalty may just make things worse for the rest of Southeast Asia.

There is a big problem regarding religion in the east, and I'm not sure if we can fix it. As I said, Confucianism and Neo-Confucianism weren't really provincial religions, more of a state philosophy. I suppose one could say that the Confucian religion in Chinese provinces represents the meshing of those three religions... which is probably what the designers were thinking.
 

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Originally posted by Jinnai
Um as far as i know renaming is impossible. The beta testers wanted to do that with protistant for pre-martin luthar eras but they couldn't.
If we cant rename the merged religion, plus the possible problems that may arise after merging, merging the religions would be out of the question.

Anyway if it were possible, i wouldn't merge them, i'd simply drop confuscianism. Neo-Confuscianism wasn't practiced much except in Japan...sure it was to some extent in china, but not like over there where the whole of government was based on neo-confuscian ideas.

I'd replace is with Taoism (but then being a secular taoist i'm partial to that). Shintoism is essentially an advanced nature worship religion and it was mixed heavily with Budhism and bits of Confuscianism for flavor.
The problem we discussed is that historically China shouldnt suffer any religious penalty with Buddhist provinces mainly due to the non-exclusive nature of "religions" in the far East that can be mixed. The same is true for Taoism. If we make Taoism a religion, whether to fill in th free spot or to replace Confucianism, the problem will be exacerbated, not solved, bcos we would have more provinces with religious penalties watever the state religion.

If we cant merge Confucian/Buddhist into an Oriental one, I guess wat we can still do is to enlarge the area with Confucianism so that it becomes any mixture of belief that is Confucian tolerant. Buddhism can be only the groups of Buddhism that is not really Confucian tolerant. This is consistent with the idea of the game programmers that religion in EU is more like a bundle of beliefs. So most of Vietnam should be Confucian instead of Buddhist, and most of the "western corridor" controlled by Chagatai should be Confucian instead of Muslim. This would lessen the religious penalty problem. But it doesnt give China an alternative, more liberal, path to advance if we were to impose strong tech penalties on Confucianism. I guess we could allow switching tech groups instead of religions as the alternative route for China to be less conservative once a certain DP level is reached. It's hard to imagine China abandoning Confucianism anyway.

More emphasis should be put on Mongolia to be more historic and more importantly to curb the strength of China. I m too lazy to think of random and historic events, i m not very interested in programming anyway, maybe someone can make suggestions.

Anyway, there are many inaccuracies in the Far East. Besides those I mentioned in my first post (eg Cantonese culture, Manchuria), the province names and the terrain are very inaccurate. Eg Sichuan and Sichuan Pendi is out of place. The distribution of population numbers within China are also highly inaccuarate. Population numbers compared to Europe is also too low, even if they only represent urban population.
 
Aug 4, 2001
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I just editted the Chinese events conserning the Emperor's suicide so that they are only triggered if China doesn't control Beijing (province 649).



## Emperor Chongzhen Commits Suicide
event = {
id = 3913
trigger = {
NOT = {
exist = MCH
}
NOT = {
control = 649
}
}
random = no
country = CHI
name = "EVENTNAME3913"
desc = "EVENTHIST3913"
style = 3

date = { day = 25 month = april year = 1644 }
offset = 0

action_a = { #Woe is us!
name = "ACTIONNAME3913A"
command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
command = { type = capital which = 654 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 240 value = 20 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
command = { type = independence which = MCH }
command = { type = sleepevent which = 10025 }
command = { type = sleepevent which = 10026 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07415 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07416 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07417 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07418 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07419 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07420 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07421 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07422 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07422 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07423 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07424 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07425 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07426 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07427 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07428 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07429 }
}
}

#The Fall of the Ming Dynasty#
event = {
id = 10014
trigger = { exists = MCH NOT = { control = 649 } }
random = no
country = CHI
name = "EVENTNAME10014"
desc = "EVENTHIST10014"
style = 3

date = { day = 25 month = april year = 1644 }
offset = 0

action_a = { #Continue to fight on in the south#
name = "ACTIONNAME10014A"
command = { type = capital which = 654 }
command = { type = relation which = MCH value = -400 }
command = { type = stability value = -8 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 635 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 636 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 637 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 638 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 639 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 640 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 643 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 644 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 645 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 646 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 647 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 648 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 649 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 650 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 651 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 1560 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 1561 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 1562 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 340 value = 5 }
command = { type = treasury value = -1000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 20000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 20000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 20000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 20000 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07415 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07416 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07417 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07418 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07419 }
command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 07420 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07421 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07422 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07422 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07423 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07424 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07425 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07426 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07427 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07428 }
command = { type = wakemonarch which = 07429 }
}
action_b = {#Throw our lot in with the Manchu and proclaim the Qing Dynasty#
name = "ACTIONNAME10014B"
command = { type = trigger which = 10015 }
command = { type = stability value = -3 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 5 }
command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
command = { type = infra value = -2000 }
command = { type = trade value = -2000 }
}
}

#The Manchu takeover of China#
event = {
id = 10016
random = no
country = CHI
name = "EVENTNAME10016"
desc = "EVENTHIST10016"
style = 3

#Triggered by MCH event 10015A#

action_a ={#We will rule this Empire together!#
name = "ACTIONNAME10016A"
command = { type = inherit which = MCH }
}
}

#The Manchu Takeover of China#
event = {
id = 10043
trigger = {
event = 10016
}
random = no
country = CHI
name = "EVENTNAME10043"
desc = "EVENTHIST10043"
style = 3

date = { day = 25 month = april year = 1644 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 26 month = april year = 1699 }

action_a = {#Long live the Qing Dynasty of the Manchu!#
name = "ACTIONNAME10043A"
command = { type = country which = MCH }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 60 value = 5 }
}
}

#The Manchu Takeover of China#
event = {
id = 10017
random = no
country = CHI
name = "EVENTNAME10017"
desc = "EVENTHIST10017"
style = 3

#Triggered by MCH event 10015B#

action_a ={#We have no choice but to accept#
name = "ACTIONNAME10017A"
command = { type = trigger which = 10018 }
}
action_b ={#We will not completely submit to these barbarians#
name = "ACTIONNAME10017B"
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 625 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 626 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 638 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 634 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 635 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 636 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 637 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 638 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 639 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 640 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 643 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 644 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 645 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 646 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 647 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 648 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 649 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 650 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 651 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 1560 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 1561 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 1562 }
command = { type = trigger which = 10019 }
}
}

#The Chinese Collapse#
event = {
id = 10025
trigger = {
not = { control = 649 }
}
random = no
country = CHI
name = "EVENTNAME10025"
desc = "EVENTHIST10025"
style = 3

date = { day = 1 month = june year = 1644 }
offset = 0
deathdate = { day = 1 month = june year = 1646 }

action_a ={#Drat!#
name = "ACTIONNAME10025A"
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 652}
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 1558}
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 1559}
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 1563}
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 1564}
command = { type = secedeprovince which = MCH value = 1565}
command = { type = stability value = -4 }
command = { type = capital which = 658 }
}
}
 

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Pure Evil Genius
Mar 29, 2001
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www.hero6.com
Hmmm...in reviewing event 10014 'The Fall of the Ming Dynasty' I think it should be tweaked again. If you choose option 2 you loose lots in infra and trade tech, but not in option 1. I think it should be at both, though moreso for option 1 and lower the gold taken to 500 in option 1 to offset that somewhat.

The suicide event should have another trigger for low stability requirement.

I might have some more comments later...
 

unmerged(10128)

Huangdi
Jul 8, 2002
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What if the capital happens to falls b4 1644?? Should the Manchus still be allowed in?? I mean Ming was on the verge of collapse at least in its last 50 years only waiting for the final blow. No reason to presume that Ming would only fall if its capital fell after 1644.