Fate I think you have a suberb thread about China and your events are right on.
Keep up the good work my friend.
Keep up the good work my friend.-
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Well if you want to be realistic you should give knowledge of China and India to all countries in Europe, the Middle East, North Africa and East Africa, and vice versa. The overland route to China was well known since Greek times so there should be no mystery.
The problem with being realitic is what happens when the AI starts sending merchants and invasion armies across vast distances. The AI also has a tendency of rather daring alliances and BB wars. The maps are set to get some form of reasonable AI behaviour rather than a reflection of "reality".
The provinces which are known using my revised list are only basic knowledge of the coastline of Sumatra, India, Persia, and Arabia, and some interior. The limit of my revised maps goes to Mogadishu. China heavily traded with the Arabs, and Indians so knowledge of their CoTs isn't outrageous.
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As far as the whole Europe argument goes, sure they knew that a land called China and India were there somewhere but the muslims were in the way of any direct access. So you get knowledge up to Alexandria and that's it after that the middle men take over.
If the Chinese knew all the searoutes before, why do we not give them that knowledge along with the coastal provinces, but remove the explorer-status from Zheng He? He's changed to an admiral, maybe with high combat rates.
At least we won't have the Chinese colonizing the Americas any longer. (Don't know if they stopped doing so in 1.05 anyway.)
What were the purposes of Zheng Hes journey? To trade and show chinese strength, or to find new territories?
At least we won't have the Chinese colonizing the Americas any longer. (Don't know if they stopped doing so in 1.05 anyway.)
What were the purposes of Zheng Hes journey? To trade and show chinese strength, or to find new territories?
I would have to agree if giving the Chinese the predetermined maps then remove Zheng He as explorer but make him a really good Admiral and General. As for Zheng He's journey, it was for trade, power, and prestige.
I have tried giving the Chinese that kind of Map before, the AI is too irresponsible. They sooner or later get into a fight and you get China everywhere
I would agree with not making him an explorer, but is there a way to lower attrition rates for a normal Lord Admiral? His fleet was truly independent from China and was basically a floating village. Also if Zheng He isn't an explorer then China should get knowledge of all of his expedition prior to 1419 (ie: the revised known province list).
I believe the stats affect it somehow, I think it was manuever for land based armies but I can't remember...
The Ai has no attrition. A player China gets military access all over Asia and beyond. I don't see a problem there.
I proposed to remove the explorer-status because Fate said the Chinese knew the way to India and Africa and used it to trade (and even some military action?). If they did, they should know the proposed provinces in 1419, but Zheng He should not start to discover the Americas or Australia.
I proposed to remove the explorer-status because Fate said the Chinese knew the way to India and Africa and used it to trade (and even some military action?). If they did, they should know the proposed provinces in 1419, but Zheng He should not start to discover the Americas or Australia.
Around 1418 Zheng He reached the end of his historical exploration (some argue he reached Madagascar), which was the coast off of Kenya. The other expeditions in the 1420s, and 1430s were just revisits to previously visited ports.
Zheng He should be a Lord Admiral with maxed out stats, and a decent (3-3-3) General.
Zheng He should be a Lord Admiral with maxed out stats, and a decent (3-3-3) General.
Maybe you could make Zheng He an Admiral, give China teh relavent maps and give the Chiense religion (I'm too lazy/apathetic to look up the currect spelling right now) -5 settlers or something along those lines to simulate the Oriental mindset of the era and to keep the Chinese from world domination.
Ahh ha perhaps -1 settlers!
It is confucionism and Nippon, Korea, and Manchu have it too!
The problem with making rhe map changes is to determine if they should apply to other countries. The Chinese sent expeditions to Europe as well, so should they have maps of Europe? Central Asia and the middle east are two other areas that should be added.
The question is: What did the Chinese missions achieve in what part of the world.
I did not hear about Chinese traders marching around in Venice every year, but, maybe they did in India.
I heard of an military expedition to Ceylon, but not to Sardinia.
So they should have the knowledge of those regions were the Chinese themselves frequently were trading commiting military action. That definitely does not include Europe.
I did not hear about Chinese traders marching around in Venice every year, but, maybe they did in India.
I heard of an military expedition to Ceylon, but not to Sardinia.
So they should have the knowledge of those regions were the Chinese themselves frequently were trading commiting military action. That definitely does not include Europe.
What's wrong with that? I for one would like to take an alternative route with China and choose for outward expansion in the Zheng He event instead of closing up. I'm personally against predetermining them to be non-colonialist.
Oh yes, in "The End of the Chinese Navy" China could perhaps get a DP bonus towards naval and Plutocratic if they choose the blue ocean over the Yellow River.
Hi, this is the first time i post in this forum, prob coz i m satisfied with everything that i read so far in the past months.
I have a few things to say about Chinese events though...
First of all, i agree that the Emperor should only commit suicide when the rebels are approaching the capital.
Turning to Zheng He, first of all, his first expedition started in 1405 and last one (7th) ended in 1433. In 1418 he was actually in his 4th expedition, and the 4th expedition was actually the first time he travelled beyond India into the Arabian Sea. He only reached Africa in his 5th and 6th expeditions. I agree to add known provinces in India and nearby sea zones to show the SUBSTANTIAL knowledge of the land and sea routes to india. Maybe the two provinces of north Japan should be taken away from CHinese knowledge because Chinese probably dont know japan all that much compared to india. Many travellers well known in history b4 Zheng He travelled to india from China and back.
The inward perfection/outward expansion event is the thing that irritated me most. It shouldnt even be an event. This kind of thing should be for the player to decide strategically, just like when u play any other european nation, u dont just get an event saying "lets just change our whole national mindset in one click". i think this whole event should be abolished. On the other hand, i like "the end of the CHinese navy" event u guys proposed as it's realistic.
It's just too unrealistic and out of touch with any realistic possibility for China to be a maritime colonial expansionist. This is bcos of the whole "Confucian" ideology that supports order, stability, good-natured-ness, etc and the supreme geographic and political position of China. The mindset goes like this: why do we need to send people overseas if we are already the supreme centre of the world where everybody learn from us?? doesnt conquering or colonising barbaric lands offend the idea of our supremacy and Confusian principles that separates us from barbarians?? etc etc. it's not to say that change is impossible, just that there would be painstaking difficulty, AND definitely not in one shot with the claim that Zheng He's diplomatic voyages can change the whole social order. If China wanted to expand, it wouldve invaded Korea or Vietnam b4 doing anything else. So the Chinese venturing into America is definitely outrageous. I agree there should be a colonist penalty for Confucianism.
With this in mind, i think we should work towards preventing Zheng He from venturing into the Pacific, let alone colonising the Americas or mindlessly conquering outlying lands. What i would propose to do is, place Zheng He at India at the start of the GC (1418 during his 4th voyage). Let him remain as an explorer, bcos he did strengthen naval trade routes and contacts but with just slightly higher maneouvre value (maybe 4). Increase the naval technology of China (to over 10 or something) so that ships wont experience as much attrition. By doing this instead of giving him maximum maneuovre value, the Ai (who experience no attrition) cant go too far. Also, with humans playing Zheng He could travel further in known seas but cannot travel through too many unknown seas (eg the Pacific) in one expedition.
In fact i think it would be more realistic if not only naval, but all 4 kinds of Chinese and adjacent areas' technologies are increased to higher than Europe's from 1418 right till at least end of 1500s. We can increase the technological penalty for Confucianism to rebalance the game. Sorry, some things i m saying here arent really related to events, but it's related to this topic and i dont really think they can be separately discussed.
Another thing is that i dont think there should be a culture called Cantonese. Cantonese is a language and can barely be termed a culture. Chinese provinces who have cantonese speaking peoples historically function just as efficiently as any other Chinese province, so the 25% penalty really shouldnt apply. I would tend to favor abolishing cantonese as a culture and creating more distinct cultures like Miao in Yunan or sumthing. To my historical knowledge the 3 Chinese province closest to Tibet should actually belong to Tibet to be more accurate. The Manchurian province of Liaotung should have Chinese culture and actually belong to Ming in 1418 while manchuria itself should probably be a vassal of Ming. Dai Viet was actually occupied by China from 1407-1427.
Lastly, (sorry, i seem think of more and more to write as i go) two important ways i think could limit China's power. First, make events to simulate the constant threat from the north, which is actually always the strongest threat to China. Maybe make rebels appear every few years along the northern provinces or even create a mongolian nation with armies appearing just for this event (i dont know if its possible to create nations without provinces). Second, reduce all 3 kinds of monarch skills for almost all the Ming emperors to 1 point or 2 points bcos historically, except the early few, Ming emperors were very weak, unskillful and didnt care for the people.
Okay this is all i have to say for now!!
I have a few things to say about Chinese events though...
First of all, i agree that the Emperor should only commit suicide when the rebels are approaching the capital.
Turning to Zheng He, first of all, his first expedition started in 1405 and last one (7th) ended in 1433. In 1418 he was actually in his 4th expedition, and the 4th expedition was actually the first time he travelled beyond India into the Arabian Sea. He only reached Africa in his 5th and 6th expeditions. I agree to add known provinces in India and nearby sea zones to show the SUBSTANTIAL knowledge of the land and sea routes to india. Maybe the two provinces of north Japan should be taken away from CHinese knowledge because Chinese probably dont know japan all that much compared to india. Many travellers well known in history b4 Zheng He travelled to india from China and back.
The inward perfection/outward expansion event is the thing that irritated me most. It shouldnt even be an event. This kind of thing should be for the player to decide strategically, just like when u play any other european nation, u dont just get an event saying "lets just change our whole national mindset in one click". i think this whole event should be abolished. On the other hand, i like "the end of the CHinese navy" event u guys proposed as it's realistic.
It's just too unrealistic and out of touch with any realistic possibility for China to be a maritime colonial expansionist. This is bcos of the whole "Confucian" ideology that supports order, stability, good-natured-ness, etc and the supreme geographic and political position of China. The mindset goes like this: why do we need to send people overseas if we are already the supreme centre of the world where everybody learn from us?? doesnt conquering or colonising barbaric lands offend the idea of our supremacy and Confusian principles that separates us from barbarians?? etc etc. it's not to say that change is impossible, just that there would be painstaking difficulty, AND definitely not in one shot with the claim that Zheng He's diplomatic voyages can change the whole social order. If China wanted to expand, it wouldve invaded Korea or Vietnam b4 doing anything else. So the Chinese venturing into America is definitely outrageous. I agree there should be a colonist penalty for Confucianism.
With this in mind, i think we should work towards preventing Zheng He from venturing into the Pacific, let alone colonising the Americas or mindlessly conquering outlying lands. What i would propose to do is, place Zheng He at India at the start of the GC (1418 during his 4th voyage). Let him remain as an explorer, bcos he did strengthen naval trade routes and contacts but with just slightly higher maneouvre value (maybe 4). Increase the naval technology of China (to over 10 or something) so that ships wont experience as much attrition. By doing this instead of giving him maximum maneuovre value, the Ai (who experience no attrition) cant go too far. Also, with humans playing Zheng He could travel further in known seas but cannot travel through too many unknown seas (eg the Pacific) in one expedition.
In fact i think it would be more realistic if not only naval, but all 4 kinds of Chinese and adjacent areas' technologies are increased to higher than Europe's from 1418 right till at least end of 1500s. We can increase the technological penalty for Confucianism to rebalance the game. Sorry, some things i m saying here arent really related to events, but it's related to this topic and i dont really think they can be separately discussed.
Another thing is that i dont think there should be a culture called Cantonese. Cantonese is a language and can barely be termed a culture. Chinese provinces who have cantonese speaking peoples historically function just as efficiently as any other Chinese province, so the 25% penalty really shouldnt apply. I would tend to favor abolishing cantonese as a culture and creating more distinct cultures like Miao in Yunan or sumthing. To my historical knowledge the 3 Chinese province closest to Tibet should actually belong to Tibet to be more accurate. The Manchurian province of Liaotung should have Chinese culture and actually belong to Ming in 1418 while manchuria itself should probably be a vassal of Ming. Dai Viet was actually occupied by China from 1407-1427.
Lastly, (sorry, i seem think of more and more to write as i go) two important ways i think could limit China's power. First, make events to simulate the constant threat from the north, which is actually always the strongest threat to China. Maybe make rebels appear every few years along the northern provinces or even create a mongolian nation with armies appearing just for this event (i dont know if its possible to create nations without provinces). Second, reduce all 3 kinds of monarch skills for almost all the Ming emperors to 1 point or 2 points bcos historically, except the early few, Ming emperors were very weak, unskillful and didnt care for the people.
Okay this is all i have to say for now!!