EEP Central Europe

[unmerged(5000)]

Originally posted by zsolo


I was also astonished when I found it in a pst of this thread. It wasn't my idea. I just found this question interesting.

no problems just wanted to avoid huge discussion on this topic on this thread

 

[Zaan]

Originally posted by Jan Zamojski


First, my friend is coming home from US today (good to have our colony in Chicago ) and he promised to bring me the game. Then I could finally look into it to check what is already done eventwise. But I'm afraid it won't be as early as 8 o'clock forum time.
As to your proposal it looks reasonable, but I have few comments:
1. What if Dymitr Samozwaniec exists as legitimate Russia's Tsar (As far as I remmeber that was the cas in EU1). We would rick writing an event that would try to install him on the throne, while he is already there
2. Assuming that 1 is solved is event of 1605 going to be an event for Poland or Russia. My proposal would be to split it into 2 events. First one for Poland: you choose whether to support Dymitr march to Russia or not. That could have some effect on POL - RUS relations but it's main role would be to trigger subsequent event for Russia. If Poland supports Dymitr (and only in that case) Russia may choose to elect Dymitr or choose a temporary regency. If Poland dosn'e support Dymitr than ther is regency between Godunov and Shuisky.
3. Dymitr II was a real usurper who emerged to a certain extent out of Bolotnikov peasant rebellion. I can't see how his election could decrease revolt risk in Russia. It would rather do the opposite. And I bet that event allowing his election would have to remove Shuisky from the throne (I'm sure he is there from around 1606-07 till K³uszyn - 1610)
4. Second Polish iintervention should rather start in 1609 or 1610 at the latest.
5. If W³adys³¹w is elected tsar than perhaps there is a chance for events related to his choice of faith and to Pozarskij / Minin uprising that I suggested.

Now it's time for a riposte (Re-post ) I said this a million times Jan. Until 12th of December i'm speaking very theorethically sa i don't have the game. I accually count on Americans or Betazoids to correct me, so as far as goes, someone would have to check, anyways it's just a proposal . Second one, you would have to clarify your vision here for the double event. Thirdly so maybe we'd just put this the other way: If Dymitr is Czar raise the revolt risk, if Shuiski-Godunov regency lower it. 4, I read that the march started somewhere in early 1611, or that's when the first victories came. As for 5, no problem, all you have to do is tell us your ideas about the uprising. As for Wladyslaw, when did he die, I'm sure Russian players wouldn't like to see a catholic Czar for too long (we can always make an optional dethronization event). Oh and don't hurry, I don't think i'll post events later today, more likely tommorow (blasted German test on Tuesady )

 

[unmerged(5000)]

I talked about relations/cultures to the guy who owns the game and he told me how cultures/royal marriages/alliances work at the start of the game. Also he told me that he still havent installed the 1.01 patch so these values could have been changing. He will install patch tommorow and will call me if anything has changed.

Also I do not guarantee that these values are correct. There could be some human errors.....

So here it is:


Wallachia
-------------
CB: Moldovia, Siebenbürgen
Culture: Romanian
Alliance: No
Royal marriage: No
Vasall to: No

Moldavia
-------------
CB: Wallachia, Siebenbürgen
Culture: Romanian
Alliance: No
Royal marriage: No
Vasall to: No

Siebenbürgen
-------------
CB: Wallachia, Moldavia
Culture: Romanian
Alliance: Hungary, Bohemia, Luxembourgh, Austria
Royal marriage: Hungary
Vasall to: No

Croatia
-------------
CB: No
Culture: Slavonic
Alliance: No
Royal marriage: Hungary
Vasall to: Hungary

Bosnia
-------------
CB: No
Culture: Slavonic
Alliance: No
Royal marriage: No
Vasall to: No

Serbia
-------------
CB: Bosnia, Hungary
Culture: Slavonic
Alliance: No
Royal marriage: No
Vasall to: No

Ragusa
-------------
CB: No
Culture: Slavonic
Alliance: No
Royal marriage: No
Vasall to: No

Hungary
-------------
CB: Croatia, Serbia
Culture: Magyar
Alliance: Bohemia, Austria, Luxembourgh, Siebenbürgen
Royal marriage: Luxembourgh, Austria, Croatia, Siebenbürgen, Bohemia
Vasall to: No

Poland
-------------
CB: Teutonic Order, Moldovia, Pommern, Lithuania
Culture: Polish, Ruthenian, Lithuenian
Alliance: Lithuania
Vasall to: No


--------------------------------------------------------------

Incase that you dont like these relations and want to complain please start another thread. I'm posting these as help for people who are creating events.

An idea is to start another thread where we could make more correct relations and try to ask paradox to take a look at them.

// Emir

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Hi guys
Seems that it's the longest thread in the EEP

Anyway, having perked the game (don't ask me how, i don't want to get banned), i will start my rant

First, culture (remember, culture mainly decrease your income, revolt risk is quite neglectable).
Well, IMHO, that culture thinge is quite wrong in central and eastern europe. (i don't really know anything about Hungary-but fact they have only magyar culture really doesn't help them, especially when they are also in orthodox tech group. Why Slovak isn't also their state culture, i dunno)

Ok, back to my rant. First, there is both Baltic and Lithuanian culture. While i appreciate giving Lithuanians their own culture, have you ever heard that Lithuanians are Balts, too?
Same goes with Ukrainian/Ruthenian cultures.
Russian is quite well placed, probably (though Smolensk and Polotsk can be disputable)
I think both Ukrainian and Lithuanian culture should be deleted, lithuania made baltic culture, rest Lithuanian-culture provinces made Ruthenian, along with Ukrainain culture provinces.

(well, i'm not sure if culture name is hardcoded, but if not, those two deleted could be used elsewhere, one of them to create German/Polish culture for Silesia, Danzig and Prussia-currently German and Baltic-and maybe Pomerania and Kustrin also)

About state cultures Lithuania now have only Lithuanian (which wrecks them totally, they are catholic, so their Ukrainian provinces got -60% income). They should have Baltic and Ukrainian instead. CB shields on all of Lithuania, Polotsk, and Kurland.

Poland have Polish, Lithuanian and Ruthenian. Instead they should have Polish and Polish/German ones. No Lithuanian culture yet! And no new Ruthenian also. And Polish CB shields are totally wrecked (i don't know if it was patched in 1.01, mind you). They are bascially Commonwealth shields... Instead it should be all Poland provinces, plus Silesia, Kustrin, Pomerania, and Prussia maybe (maybe). And no CB on Lithuanian provinces! Come on, no one in Poland would consider Tula it's core province!

Well, Union of Lublin event should be handled differently.

Here is current.
#The Act of Union-'Rzeczpospolita Polska'#
event = {

id = 3475 #Triggered by LIT3447#
random = no
country = POL
name = "EVENTNAME3475"
desc = "EVENTHIST3475"
style = 2

action_a ={ #Enact the Union#
name = "ACTIONNAME3475A"
command = { type = inherit which = LIT }
command = { type = stability which = 2 }
command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = -1 }
command = { type = addcore which = 279 }
command = { type = addcore which = 280 }
command = { type = addcore which = 284 }
command = { type = addcore which = 285 }
command = { type = addcore which = 286 }
command = { type = addcore which = 287 }
command = { type = addcore which = 288 }
command = { type = addcore which = 293 }
command = { type = addcore which = 294 }
command = { type = addcore which = 295 }
command = { type = addcore which = 450 }

Event should add core provinces on all of Lithuania of course. I'm not sure about domestic sliders.

But: It sholdn't be handled: Poland inherits Lithuania!It should be like Russia or Spain, creation of new country-event engine doesn't allow that, but if we would make TWO events, first, inheriting Lithuania, and then (triggered by former), creating Commonwealth, it should work.

New country should also have Baltic as state culture added. And maybe remove Pomerania and Kustrin CB shield.
I'm not sure if new state should have Ukrainian culture as state. This is because there are no Ukrainian uprising events, even one, sadly. But since culture mainly reduces income, IMHO Ukrainian should be also state culture. Uprisings would be handled by events, lots of them, with the greatest in 1648 (with option i would really like, creation of Commonwealth of three nations, another new state )

And btw, anyone already came up with Tarnowski military reforms event? Creation of Husaria definitly should be in

 

[Zaan]

I was wondering when you'll post something here Maur. Anyways I don't know how the Union is handeld in the proper game so I can't compare your proposal to it . And if you have any ideas, I don't think you should hesitste, just post them, but expect date correction by Jan Zamojski (bez urazy) I came with 3 ideas for the Time of Troubles and he corrected my dates every time. I'm of course not saying this is bad, this is due to my lack of good sources (but alas I'm working on that ). AndI'm dissapointed with the lack of comments. I don't want to edit my events 4 times like befor so tell me what do you think about the new ToT (It's somewhere on this page I think ) and please write your ideas about the possible benefits/penalties for coresponding choices in events. What happened guys, last time it was remarks galore and now one lousy reply (Still, loads of thanks though Jz )

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Well, Union of Lublin is basically inheritance. It's handled that way:
Lithuania gets and event. Accept Union or not.
If they doesn't, Poland gets CB or can "let them loose"
If yes, Poland can disagree, or enact the Union.

I posted the last choice in my previous post. It's basically inheritance, with adding core provinces (acutally, those provinces are Poland core already, mistake, IMHO), and some decentralization (which isn't very important, happy trying to centralize Poland, with all those events...)

There is another issue. Both Poland and Lithuania get few events lowering tax value of provinces. It cipples Lithuania even more, those events can turn half of their provinces (already too poor, come on, Smolensk province with tax value 4?) into 0-land tax trash...
I suppose it's here to reflect low crown income in both countries, but it's wrong idea IMHO. Two reasons:
1) If those provinces got conquered (by Russia, for example), they would be still poor. I don't want to own 0-tax Tula, for example
2) There are no other way events-no way to take those magnates land back
And few other reasons, lowering supply values, for exaple.

How it could be done (low crown treasury)
I have one idea. Because low income was mainly from Commonwealth proper lands (noble's privileges), one solutions (i admit, kinda strange solution) is to add tax income from all core provinces of CW, and make an event on 1st of January, decreasing the treasury by fixed amount...
this leads to some problems (for example, what if CW loses half of its provinces? Loss of income shouold be much lower) but it can be fixed, i hope (for example, if trigger-if CW owns some provinces)'

It could also be cool way to implement few events allowing you to crush the magnates. For example, every decade, event which makes those treasury events dormant, and triggers many civil war events

So, what do you think?

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Hmmm, one of my ideas (i will try not to flood this thread, so only one now )

About Cossacks Uprisings.

Serisues of event triggered by creating commonwealth.

Every decade or so, there would be an event giving CW CB against Ottomans and/or Crimea. Some time later, next event, triggered by CW NOT beign at war against either of those countries.

1)Choice one-suppres the Cossack rebels-big revolt risk, or rebellions.
2)Bribe them off-treasury and maybe stab hit
3)negotiate-this would vary depending on the exact event, but in general some sort of Hadziacz Union

 

[unmerged(2833)]

One more thing. Before the union, Poland should be definitly latin tech group. If new country should be orthodox, i dunno.

Mamut, i lack knowledge about Russia ToT, sorry

And i also don't know if events can force you into war (that's about your idea-"- Sweden is free to chose whether intervene (The Polish support here is given for a maybe entertaining diversion ) "

And this:
"- Then however the nobles become unhappy and ask Sweden for military help against rebels (This is historical but I have no ideas how to "event" this ) "

Can be handled by giving Russia some troops and/or negative revolt risk modifier.

 

[unmerged(1609)]

Hurrah!!! I just got the game (straight from the States). I installed it with patch 1.01. So no I can check what's already in the game with regard to ToT in Russia. So here is what I found so far. In Russia's monarch list both Dymitr Samozwaniec (1605 - 1606) and W³adys³aw Vasa (1610 - 1612) are already present. They simply become tsars of Russia in those years, not us usurpers or anti-monarchcs but as the only choices for Russia. So Mamut if you want to write any event that would install either of them as tsar, but would give Russia other rulers if you choose alternative path , you have to add those additional monarchcs for Russia (that could be for example something like Boyar's regency). Fortunately Russia's monarch's list has at least 19 free id's for new monarchs.

There is one event for Russia called "Time of Troubles" which is triggered between 1603 and 1604. It has 3 options: "Support local candidates", "Support Polish candidates", "Support Swedish candidates". Each one mostly affects revoltrisk, stability level and relations with Poland and Sweden. Choice of supporting Swedish or Polish candidates would also sleep subsequent events for Poland or Sweden respectively. IF Russia doesn't choose to support polish candidates than Poland can get another event in 1609 called "W³adis³aw, Czar of all Russians". If Poland chooses to support W³adis³aw claim it gets CB against Russia, drop in relation with Russia and Sweden. If it goes against it doesn't get a CB, has more positive effect on relations with Sweden and russia and increases stability in Poland. So in fact Poland choosing A has no effect on W³adys³aw actually becoming Tsar of Russia. The funniest of all is that if Poland chooses not intervene in Russia, W³adys³aw will anyway become Tsar and will rule Russia from 1610 till 1612 (those stuborn Russians, perhaps they kidnapped poor W³adys³aw but then grew tired of him and send him back ) So really there is some work to be done.
No, Mamut, I hope you can use that info while designing your set of events. I would suggest to uses Russia's ToT event as a starting point fo all subsequent events.

 

[unmerged(5759)]

come on,people
croatia should have a casus belli on ragusa,istria.dalmatia and bosnia...since dalmatia and istria are lands conquered by venice when croatia was in trouble with turks....ragusa was a croatian republic,and language it was used there is a todays official language of croatia....bosnia often changed hands,however although western and northern- predominatly croatian parts of bosnia are included (geographically looking at eu`s map)in croatia and dalmatia-croatia in middle ages often included all of it...

also,i have a proposal for an event:
croatia and hungary were in union which cannot be excatly presented in eu2:dynastical union...croatia should have been seperate kingdom,with its own parliament,army,nobles,laws,etc....but ever since 1102 (start of union) till 1918 (end) hungary was,due to its size,a senior partner and often tried to make croatia just one of its provinces...never succeded...anyway croatia starts as a vassal oh hungary....in 1527. hungary elected habsburgs for kings...so did croatia in its own parliament....so here is a proposal:
if croatia exsist,they should get event with options:a)proclaim complete independence (-100 relations with hungary) b)elect habsburgs (same results as for hungary) c)give up ights and proclaim itself integral part of hungary...

also,hungary should from time to time get events like:a)proclaim annexation of croatia (33% chance for succes,66% to fail,relations drop severaly,croatia declares war,etc...)b)confirm croatian rights(better relations,more money from croatia,but lower chance for diplo annexation (is that possible??)

and if croatia liberates dalmtia ragusa should get event in which it could decide to join croatia-since ragusa formed only after it was cut from croatia by venice conquers....

of course all of this events should happen only if numerous if-s are confirmed (hungary exist,croatia not a part of turkey or 3rd power,etc...)

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by von Morris
come on,people
croatia should have a casus belli on ragusa,istria.dalmatia and bosnia...since dalmatia and istria are lands conquered by venice when croatia was in trouble with turks....ragusa was a croatian republic,and language it was used there is a todays official language of croatia....bosnia often changed hands,however although western and northern- predominatly croatian parts of bosnia are included (geographically looking at eu`s map)in croatia and dalmatia-croatia in middle ages often included all of it...

also,i have a proposal for an event:
croatia and hungary were in union which cannot be excatly presented in eu2:dynastical union...croatia should have been seperate kingdom,with its own parliament,army,nobles,laws,etc....but ever since 1102 (start of union) till 1918 (end) hungary was,due to its size,a senior partner and often tried to make croatia just one of its provinces...never succeded...anyway croatia starts as a vassal oh hungary....in 1527. hungary elected habsburgs for kings...so did croatia in its own parliament....so here is a proposal:
if croatia exsist,they should get event with options:a)proclaim complete independence (-100 relations with hungary) b)elect habsburgs (same results as for hungary) c)give up ights and proclaim itself integral part of hungary...

Nice suggestion. Good rule number one when designing events is that the historic choice is always the first one. That one have 85% probability of being picked by the AI.

also,hungary should from time to time get events like:a)proclaim annexation of croatia (33% chance for succes,66% to fail,relations drop severaly,croatia declares war,etc...)b)confirm croatian rights(better relations,more money from croatia,but lower chance for diplo annexation (is that possible??)

The percentage you suggest is not that easy... As mentioned above the first suggestion have 85% probability of being picked by the AI, 15% for the rest. The rest is doable.

and if croatia liberates dalmtia ragusa should get event in which it could decide to join croatia-since ragusa formed only after it was cut from croatia by venice conquers....

of course all of this events should happen only if numerous if-s are confirmed (hungary exist,croatia not a part of turkey or 3rd power,etc...)

 

[unmerged(5000)]

von Morris, did you read what I said?

Here is it once more


Incase that you dont like these relations and want to complain please start another thread. I'm posting these as help for people who are creating events.




There are already 7 pages in this thread. Making it even longer and spinning on new topics wont help those who want to start writing events !!!

So feel free to post event suggestions and discuss events, but dont spin on new topics.

and btw sorry if I'm sounding harsh, just trying to keep the thread focused and easy to read.

 

[unmerged(4848)]

Originally posted by von Morris
come on,people
croatia should have a casus belli on ragusa,istria.dalmatia and bosnia...since dalmatia and istria are lands conquered by venice when croatia was in trouble with turks....ragusa was a croatian republic,and language it was used there is a todays official language of croatia....bosnia often changed hands,however although western and northern- predominatly croatian parts of bosnia are included (geographically looking at eu`s map)in croatia and dalmatia-croatia in middle ages often included all of it...

also,i have a proposal for an event:
croatia and hungary were in union which cannot be excatly presented in eu2:dynastical union...croatia should have been seperate kingdom,with its own parliament,army,nobles,laws,etc....but ever since 1102 (start of union) till 1918 (end) hungary was,due to its size,a senior partner and often tried to make croatia just one of its provinces...never succeded...anyway croatia starts as a vassal oh hungary....in 1527. hungary elected habsburgs for kings...so did croatia in its own parliament....so here is a proposal:
if croatia exsist,they should get event with options:a)proclaim complete independence (-100 relations with hungary) b)elect habsburgs (same results as for hungary) c)give up ights and proclaim itself integral part of hungary...

also,hungary should from time to time get events like:a)proclaim annexation of croatia (33% chance for succes,66% to fail,relations drop severaly,croatia declares war,etc...)b)confirm croatian rights(better relations,more money from croatia,but lower chance for diplo annexation (is that possible??)

and if croatia liberates dalmtia ragusa should get event in which it could decide to join croatia-since ragusa formed only after it was cut from croatia by venice conquers....

of course all of this events should happen only if numerous if-s are confirmed (hungary exist,croatia not a part of turkey or 3rd power,etc...)

In the end there is an unbiased, and historically reasonable proposal from Croatian side. Although I still do not see any justified facts how Croatia could be able to choose a different way of Hungary before 1526 (as I already pointed out several times in different threads).

But this annex vs. independence event engine of von Morris is very worth to work on!

I agree that Croatia should have a CB on Dalmatia, Ragusa, Istria, Dalmatia and Bosnia. These provinces really belong to their hemisphere (here just to mention that Hungary should also have a CB on Dalamtia just due to the fact that he lost this province finally to Venice even in the years 1419-20).

Concerning the difficulty to simulate the union between Hungary and Croatia from 1102-1918. I think a dynastical alliance must be between them anyway, however I'm not sure how it exactly works. The starting position must be a vassal (with a relation around + 100-150), I agree. I find this solution quite good just because in that case if Croatia broke vassalisation she gets a stability of -3 and Hungary a CB against her.

What's more, the 1527 event (elect the Habsburgs to king) seems for me reasonabel only if Turkey annexed already all the provinces in the Balkans (Serbia, Bosnia, Albania) and so has a common border with Hungary. Only in that case could the idea come up to the Croatian nobility to go on the way of choosing the King of Austria instead of the weakening Hungarian power.

As for the permanent Hungarian annexation event, we could think of it. I am ready to work on it, so looking forward to more details.

 

[unmerged(4848)]

Originally posted by emir
I talked about relations/cultures to the guy who owns the game and he told me how cultures/royal marriages/alliances work at the start of the game. Also he told me that he still havent installed the 1.01 patch so these values could have been changing. He will install patch tommorow and will call me if anything has changed.

Also I do not guarantee that these values are correct. There could be some human errors.....

So here it is:


Wallachia
-------------
CB: Moldovia, Siebenbürgen
Culture: Romanian
Alliance: No
Royal marriage: No
Vasall to: No

Moldavia
-------------
CB: Wallachia, Siebenbürgen
Culture: Romanian
Alliance: No
Royal marriage: No
Vasall to: No

Siebenbürgen
-------------
CB: Wallachia, Moldavia
Culture: Romanian
Alliance: Hungary, Bohemia, Luxembourgh, Austria
Royal marriage: Hungary
Vasall to: No

Croatia
-------------
CB: No
Culture: Slavonic
Alliance: No
Royal marriage: Hungary
Vasall to: Hungary

Bosnia
-------------
CB: No
Culture: Slavonic
Alliance: No
Royal marriage: No
Vasall to: No

Serbia
-------------
CB: Bosnia, Hungary
Culture: Slavonic
Alliance: No
Royal marriage: No
Vasall to: No

Ragusa
-------------
CB: No
Culture: Slavonic
Alliance: No
Royal marriage: No
Vasall to: No

Hungary
-------------
CB: Croatia, Serbia
Culture: Magyar
Alliance: Bohemia, Austria, Luxembourgh, Siebenbürgen
Royal marriage: Luxembourgh, Austria, Croatia, Siebenbürgen, Bohemia
Vasall to: No

Poland
-------------
CB: Teutonic Order, Moldovia, Pommern, Lithuania
Culture: Polish, Ruthenian, Lithuenian
Alliance: Lithuania
Vasall to: No


--------------------------------------------------------------

Incase that you dont like these relations and want to complain please start another thread. I'm posting these as help for people who are creating events.

An idea is to start another thread where we could make more correct relations and try to ask paradox to take a look at them.

// Emir

Emir, could you also provide us the cultures of the individual provinces as well? Only then can we start our correction work.

 

[unmerged(5394)]

I think the Hungarian cultural settings are but a joke! Only 3 out of the 10 national provinces have the state culture, which is probably the worst ratio of any country in EUII, not to mention it is very unhistorical. I know EMIR that You intend to leave these questions to other threads, but I am afraid they have to be corrected as well (like the independent Transsylvania thing). If You have any suggestions were these issues can be dealt with adequatly, apart from this thread, than please post Your suggestions.

For the time being, here are some new events:


Imprisonment of Vlad Dracul:

Whenever the Ottoman Empire wins a battle against a wallachian army lead by Vlad Dracul, and it starts to besiege its capital (I think they have only 1 province in 1419), that could trigger the event.
A.) 85% chance, that he will be imprisoned in Hungary for 10 years (relations with Hungary -100, Wallachia becomes a Hungarian vassal)after that he automatically comes back as Wallachian prince if Walachia still exist, but as a vassall of Hungary
B.) 10% chance Vlad Dracul remains free and nothing happens
C.) 5% Vlad Dracul's (revenge) Ottomans loose 15-20% of their army besieging Wallachias capitol, (due to desertations, of rumors of the cruality of Vlad the impaler), and Wallachia suffers a -25 in relation with all its neighbours.

Historical background: Vlad Dracul aka Tepes first became prince of Wallachia around 1436-37, lead several campaigns against the turks and some of the richer cities in the south-eastern regions of Hungary (also known as Transsylvania), of whom some - indeed - were populated by Germans (Saxons). For these crimes he was imprisoned by king Mátyás (Mathias Corvinus) of Hungary between 1462 and 1475 in Buda, the capital of Hungary. He died around 1476 after he was put back to power as a Hungarian vassal rular of Wallachia around 1475-1476.

The Great Hungarian Peasent Revolt of 1514-1515 under Dozsa György
(There sould be a Great German Peasent Revolt, have to check this in the westEU thread):

A.) 85% chance: revolts in Maros, Banat and Transsylvania lead by Dozsa (leader 2,3,3,0)(+3 Serfdom, -2 Stability, + 2 Aristocracy, -2 decentralisation)
B.) 10% chance: nothing happens
C.) 5% chance: Dozsa and his rebells gain their rights, and he becomes a regular Hungarian leader (-2 Stability, -250D, -2 Aristocracy, +3 Free Subject, +2 Centralisation)


Cheriooo

 

[celedhring]

Mmmmm... I can't speak about the EU2 era, but the census made during the XIXth century very much agrees with the culture division Paradox has made in Hungary. The Banat province was very much ethnically fragmented, so it could be argued, but I think Paradox has done well in modelling the multinational composition of the crown of St. Stephen.

And yeah, no independent Transylvania that time.

 

[unmerged(5394)]

originally posted by Celedhring
Mmmmm... I can't speak about the EU2 era, but the census made during the XIXth century very much agrees with the culture division Paradox has made in Hungary. The Banat province was very much ethnically fragmented, so it could be argued, but I think Paradox has done well in modelling the multinational composition of the crown of St. Stephen. And yeah, no independent Transylvania that time.

That is excatly the point we have always argued against!
If You create a game, which intends to capture the historical conditions at a certain time in history You have to be consistent. As You have pointed out Paradox has taken the XIX. cetruy ethnical maps in an environment of 1419 which is very wrong. They should have used the historical ethnic situation. They have certainly used the (more or less)correct ones concerning for example the berber culture in southern Spain, but unfortunately they did not take sufficient time to gather correct info on many Central European provinces (I know that my Polish friends have some problems concerning culture in Gdansk, and some of the Ruthenian provinces too).

In 1419 the majority population of the Hungarian Kingdom, thus the culture too was Hungarian. I am not saying that there were no other ethnic minorites living there, but to say that only 30% of the territory (that is 3 of 10 national provinces) was populated by non-Hungarians is really a joke. The ethnic situation has changed dramatically after the turks invaded Hungary in the 1540s, but only as a consequence of that. Thus in 1419, apart from the 3 provinces, which have magyar cultur, at least Pressburg (which was Hungary's capitol between 1541-1848!!!), Banat, and Transsylvania shoul have magyar culture, which is still only 60% of the country, thus still not reflecting the 70% ratio of that time.

I can understand some of these changes by Paradox due to game-balance, but since Hungary is in the orthodox tech-tree it is already very challenging to keep up with Austria for instance, why they further (unhistorically) weakenend Hungary with the cultural settings (remember -30% tax, +1 revolt risk) remains a mistery to me.

Cheriooo

 

[unmerged(4848)]

Originally posted by Attila the Hun



That is excatly the point we have always argued against!
If You create a game, which intends to capture the historical conditions at a certain time in history You have to be consistent. As You have pointed out Paradox has taken the XIX. cetruy ethnical maps in an environment of 1419 which is very wrong. They should have used the historical ethnic situation. They have certainly used the (more or less)correct ones concerning for example the berber culture in southern Spain, but unfortunately they did not take sufficient time to gather correct info on many Central European provinces (I know that my Polish friends have some problems concerning culture in Gdansk, and some of the Ruthenian provinces too).

In 1419 the majority population of the Hungarian Kingdom, thus the culture too was Hungarian. I am not saying that there were no other ethnic minorites living there, but to say that only 30% of the territory (that is 3 of 10 national provinces) was populated by non-Hungarians is really a joke. The ethnic situation has changed dramatically after the turks invaded Hungary in the 1540s, but only as a consequence of that. Thus in 1419, apart from the 3 provinces, which have magyar cultur, at least Pressburg (which was Hungary's capitol between 1541-1848!!!), Banat, and Transsylvania shoul have magyar culture, which is still only 60% of the country, thus still not reflecting the 70% ratio of that time.

I can understand some of these changes by Paradox due to game-balance, but since Hungary is in the orthodox tech-tree it is already very challenging to keep up with Austria for instance, why they further (unhistorically) weakenend Hungary with the cultural settings (remember -30% tax, +1 revolt risk) remains a mistery to me.

Cheriooo

Oh yes! That is really the major point! The cultural settings of Paradox is really for laughing. However I still do not understand how Paradox defined cultures for each province (upon the majority of towns/cities population or the whole province), I can also support the post of Attila. The ethnical situation of the Carpathian basin was changing radically after Hungary had been devided beween the Turks and Habsburgs. This XIXth century ethnicity map reflects the 1800's situation correctly BUT it is not the case in the XIV century. At that time there was no massive influx of Serbian and Romanian refugees, no settllers of German-origin.

So this 3 Magyar culture provinces out of 10 is a shame. It cannot be underpinned in any way historically! The reasons of Paradox that Hungary HAD TO be weakened... No comment. Isn't EUII a great strategical simulation?

Please, let all of us who are committed to the correctness of EUII get on work and correct this huge mistake in the patch as soon as possible!

 

[celedhring]

The problem with the whole culture system is that

a) Doesn't allow for the presence of minorities, so you're either full XXXX or full YYYY.

b) Isn't dynamic, unless changed it via events.

So we have to work within this limitations. For example. the southern provinces in Spain didn't have an arabic majority, but Paradox thought its presence was strong enough to warrant giving those culture to the provinces, for gameplay's sake. And for example, there was that Magyar zone isolated in the easternmost part of Transylvania (Szekels or something like tat) that can't be represented because the province is either full Romanian or full Magyar.

Anyway, I'll investigate your claims, Hungarian friends, the data I have from the pre-turk era is quite fuzzy, you know.

(and I understand you position, every complain about cultures is often seen as nationalistic manipulation here )

 

[unmerged(28)]

Originally posted by celedhring

(and I understand you position, every complain about cultures is often seen as nationalistic manipulation here )

Maybe because it so often is... the indirect effect of 150 years of nationalistic history writing and that goes for every country, yes even Iceland. The separation of was is factisized Myth and what is truth is very hard for many people. Even today 9 of 10 Swedes seriously believes that Poland was a crap-nation as powerful as San Marino from its Craddle to its Grave(1795)....I mean its preposterous...However, Myths live on.

I also want you know Gentlemen Hungarians that neither I am stupid or emotionless, but I worried a lot about the situation of Hungary...All nations will have spots where abstractions seem to cover the sunlight of historical RL. However, hoped Hungary to be strong enough to cope with the problem you name. And they do...In my first game as Austria some beta patches away I was litterally used as toilettpaper by Hungary. If we make quick recapp at the Transylvania 'errors'...It might very well be as you say that there were no REALLY independent Transylvania at least not as independent as Wallachia or Moldavia, though it was prolly more important than the Banat was or any other LOCAL hungarian province. However, I left Transylvania there to HELP the Hungarian player... IF Transylvania exists in 1526 THEN the Larger Chunk of Hungary will live on. Otherwise I had to demise her from the scene altogether, which is something I found even worse from the state of fact (and I hope you agree).

It might be so that you find some much better way of portraiting things that I find very good. I wish you good luck in your endeavour.

/Greven