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Twoflower

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Originally posted by Lachlan
Scotland was at war with England, but basically all of the fighting took place in France. I personally think that Scotland should not only be taken out of the Hundred Years' War but out of the French alliance entirely at the start of the Grand Campaign. Scotland was allied with France, but this can be simulated through the events you speak of, and taking Scotland out of the alliance will stop it from getting into wars with England and getting conquered, which, as Chengar Qordath has pointed out above, is ahistorical. If England does not get into wars with Scotland, then it will be possible to have a nice, powerful England that does not generally conquer Scotland.

In fact, if Scotland is removed from the Hundred Years War - which is most likely more accurate and better - it has to be taken out of the French alliance because otherwise the English AI (and a smart, sneaky English player, too) always declares war on Scotland just after concluding war with France and is thus able to dramaticallly speed up conquest of France.
Three other things:
- the history section of bbc.co.uk says this:
Henry V renewed England's claims in France in 1414, demanding Normandy and Anjou as well as the lands allocated by the Treaty of Brétigny. In 1415 he landed in Normandy. Depleted after a long siege, Henry's army made for Calais, but was blocked by a larger French army at Agincourt. The well-tried combination of archers and swordsmen won the battle, to French shock and humiliation
Doesn't this mean England deserves shields on Gascogne, Guyenne, Calais (Aquitaine and Calais were ceded to England in Bretigny), Normandie, Caux and Maine? Testing this, it does improve English performance and, combined with my second suggestion, it makes the HYW develop more historically
- it was suggested several times in this fora (e.g. in the French discussion threads or by MKJ) that Normandie and Caux should still be owned by France and only controlled by England. Speaking in EU2 terms, (while Calais and Gascogne had been "owned" by England since Bretigny) the two provinces had been occupied in the war (the city of Rouen was in fact only conquered in the course of 1419) and ownership was ceded in the Treaty of Troyes. Again, this makes the HYW go more historically since England will start out with a higher warscore and thus not settle for some money after two months like it usually did
- Picardie has to be removed from the conditions for the English End of the Hundred Years War. England not owning Picardie causing that event and thus them to loose the HYW is highly unfair and ahistorical - Picardie was Burgundian and should therefore not affect the conflict between England and France.
 

Johnny Canuck

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Okay, I will remove Scotland from the Anglo-French war and the French alliance for 1419 (good point about the exploit if left in the alliance). I will also remove Picardie from the requirements for the "End of the Hundred Years War" event (3004).

In terms of Twoflower's other two suggestions, I would rather wait until the next version of the EEP is getting prepared. We went through a very lengthy discussion on the HYW last summer here, & I would want any changes to the CB shields setup to be discussed at length before going into the EEP.
 
Last edited:

Chengar Qordath

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Originally posted by Johnny Canuck
In terms of Twoflower's other two suggestions, I would rather wait until the next version of the EEP is getting prepared. We went through a very lengthy discussion on the HYW last summer here, & I would want any changes to the CB shields setup to be discussed at length before going into the EEP.

If any English shields are ever added on France, they should be lost with the "End of the Hundred Years War" event.
 

Johnny Canuck

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Originally posted by Chengar Qordath
If any English shields are ever added on France, they should be lost with the "End of the Hundred Years War" event.

I completely agree, and that is generally how it works now. If England does conquer France, it does gain a good number of CB shields, but the shields are lost again (permanently) if France regains independence.
 

Johnny Canuck

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A Formula for the English Civil War

About a year ago, I first discussed completely overhauling the way in which the English Civil War specifically and the Stuart era in general was handled. You can reference one of my original posts on this subject here, and there is a lot of pertinent discussion in the pages surrounding that post. Finally, after many distractions, I have finally gotten around to beginning work on the project. So far, my attention has been focussed on the actual Civil War - how that will operate will determine how the events both preceding & following it will work.

As I mentioned in the post linked above, I wanted to create a situation where the player actually had to fight the Civil War (with the possibility of defeat) as opposed to simply choosing the winning side. After much testing, I think I have come up with a formula that allows this to occur, without messing up the AI. In general, here is how it works:

When the Civil War starts, the English player has an event that forces him to choose sides, with the A option being to support Parliament. If the player chooses to support Parliament, then the Royalists are granted independence, & England is forced to declare war on them. If the player chooses to support Charles I, then the Puritans (who will likely be renamed Parliament) are granted independence, & England is forced to declare war on them. Thus the player is faced with actually fighting organized enemy forces, not just scattered rebels. The Royalist & Puritan entries in the revolt.txt will be adjusted so that they can never rebel & never be granted independence - thus, they will only appear in the game via the first Civil War event (& in that case only one of them will ever appear). The Royalists and Puritans also have events at the start that given them sizable armies so they can fight right from the start.

Also, the Royalist & Puritans will have a special "English_Civil_War.ai" file that ensures that they never use colonists (their money should be spend on armies), & has ferocity turned on. This is essential, so as to avoid having the ai sign a premature peace treaty. The idea is to keep the war going for five years, and my tests have shown that this has occurred every time.

After the five years are up, there is an event-driven peace. The way this works is that there are a series of events for each of the 11 English provinces, including duplicates for Royalists, Puritans, & the English themselves. The way they work is that, on the same date, if the owner of the province has lost control of it to the opposing side, the province is ceded to the opposing side. For example, if, after five years of warfare, the English (having chosen to side with Parliament) have gained control of Cornwall and the Midlands, the Royalists are forced to cede those provinces to the English. Since the Royalists & Puritans have a set number of provinces that they start with via the first Civil War event (the Royalists 5, the Puritans 6), after five years the ownership of provinces will reflect the fortunes of the war. Immediately thereafter, the Royalists or Puritans (whichever side the English did not side with) has an event that determines the outcome of the Civil War based on the countrysize of the Royalists or Puritans. For example, the Royalists start out with 5 provinces. If, at the end of the war, they lost Cornwall and Northumberland, but gained Bristol, the province ownership events described above would leave them with a countrysize of 4. This would trigger the "Parliamentary Minor Victory" event, reflecting that the Royalists lost but not decisively. There are seven outcomes to the war, a decisive victory (if either side loses control of four provinces, the war ends immediately), a major victory (if the net result is that either side lost control of three provinces), a minor victory (if the net result is that either side lost control of one or two provinces), or a stalemate (if the net result is that no provinces exchanged hands). Only one of these events will occur at the end of the war, since they are dependent on the "countrysize" trigger. Each of these events trigger a corresponding event for England (i.e. in the above example, the "Parliamentary Minor Victory" event for the Royalists directly triggers the "Parliamentary Minor Victory" event for England). This event for England then annexes the opposing side (Royalist or Puritan), & then this event becomes the basis for the post-war situation. Also, if, say, England chose to support Parliament but the result was a Royalists Minor, Major, or Decisive Victory, then upon the end of the war the Royalists would effectively "take over" England, with Charles I reassuming power. Thus, there are real consequences to losing the war.

I hope all of this makes sense. The outline above involves a total of 55 events, although in any given game an average of only 7-10 would occur (if no provinces exchange hands, there would be only 5). By using ferocity & countrysize, it is possible to cover every possible outcome for the war, whether it is fought by a human player or by the AI. I think this formula opens up a lot of opportunities, and forcing the English player to actually fight the Civil War will be both realistic & immersive, & would, I think, be a unique experience for an EU2 player.

So far, I have run 5 formal AI-vs.-AI tests using this basic formula with the 1617 scenario (the dates were pushed up so that 1642 became 1617, etc., although land tech was adjusted to what it should be in the 1640s). Scotland was made to be neutral for these tests (events will deal with the question of Scotland's role). The results of these tests were quite encouraging. In four of the five tests (every time the English choose to side with Parliament), the result was a Parliamentary Minor Victory, which I consider to be the historical outcome (the other test resulted in a stalemate). On average, just over three provinces exchanged hands (usually the Royalists would lose two & capture one), which I consider to be a fairly good performance for the AI. Nothing completely unexpected happened, and the events worked the way they were designed to work. Once, the Dutch intervened to support the English, and although it didn't amount to much, I think I have a way to handle the question of foreign intervention.

What I am wondering at this point is what people think of this idea in general. I have yet to go into details about leaders for each side, specific events (such as the New Model Army), issues regarding Scotland, Eire, & Wales, etc., but would like some feedback on the underlying mechanics of this formula before proceeding. What do you think? Is it worth continuing work on? It is complicated, & I imagine a "readme" might need to be included in the EEP to explain to the player what is going on so they don't panic, but I think once players realize what is going, they will find it interesting. Any comments and/or criticisms would be very much appreciated.
 

Twoflower

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This sounds indeed awesome. In fact I think it might be nice and make for very entertaining games, as soon as these events are completed, to create an EEP scenario starting in the 1640s where it's possible to play the English civil war and the struggle for the Chinese crown with all factions represented (i.e. Royalists, England and Scotland for the civil war and Dai Shun, Dai Xi, Zhou, Southern Ming and Manchu in China). 1648 would be an obvious startdate in that time, however it's probably too late for both China and the Civil War.
Good that you remove Picardie from the event. In a recent MP with England, France and Burgundy (me) played, the English player got very angry when he learned that he had gotten the event despite having destroyed France because Picardie was Burgundian and I was accused of having planned this while I had only wanted it as a historical Burgundian province. This was evidently rather bad.
Sorry for not being aware of that discussion, but this thread here is rather... lengthy. Can you tell me where exactly (what page) I can find it. Be it as it may, it is a fact that the Hundred Years War is handled rather badly and inconsistently right now and that it does not really happen the way it should with the ai in charge. I just cannot stand AI and even player England peacing out for money or even loosing the initial war after two months anymore.
 

Chengar Qordath

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The changes to the English Civil War sound like they would be very interesting, and would certainly make the civil war better than the current short bout of rebel suppression.
 

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Sounds great Johnny!
 

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Originally posted by Twoflower
This sounds indeed awesome. In fact I think it might be nice and make for very entertaining games, as soon as these events are completed, to create an EEP scenario starting in the 1640s where it's possible to play the English civil war and the struggle for the Chinese crown with all factions represented (i.e. Royalists, England and Scotland for the civil war and Dai Shun, Dai Xi, Zhou, Southern Ming and Manchu in China). 1648 would be an obvious startdate in that time, however it's probably too late for both China and the Civil War.

I was thinking as I worked on these events that they might be applicable for other situations (provided that free tags could be found). What about starting a scenario in 1618? That way, we can make sure that the Thirty Years' War gets off to the right start (which is hard to get starting earlier), & it is close enough to the English Civil War & the struggles in China to more or less ensure that they start as they should.

Good that you remove Picardie from the event. In a recent MP with England, France and Burgundy (me) played, the English player got very angry when he learned that he had gotten the event despite having destroyed France because Picardie was Burgundian and I was accused of having planned this while I had only wanted it as a historical Burgundian province. This was evidently rather bad.

Ouch, I can see how that would cause a problem. I also asked mnorrefeldt to remove Calais from the event as well - England kept that province long after they had "lost" the HYW.

Sorry for not being aware of that discussion, but this thread here is rather... lengthy. Can you tell me where exactly (what page) I can find it. Be it as it may, it is a fact that the Hundred Years War is handled rather badly and inconsistently right now and that it does not really happen the way it should with the ai in charge. I just cannot stand AI and even player England peacing out for money or even loosing the initial war after two months anymore.

No worries - it was a long discussion that happened a long time ago! It starts on the bottom of page 10, and goes to about page 34. :eek: It is both lengthy &, at times, repetitive. However, we did discuss extensively the question of CB shields, so there are some good comments on various CB possibilities amongst the posts. I am intrigued by your other idea (i.e. having Normandie & Caux controlled, not owned, by England), as you are right in that it should cause the HYW to continue for a while. When v1.4 comes out, I'll run a few tests to see how it works. I'm definitely in favour of anything that helps the initial stages of the HYW go a bit more historically.
 

Twoflower

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Originally posted by Johnny Canuck
I was thinking as I worked on these events that they might be applicable for other situations (provided that free tags could be found). What about starting a scenario in 1618? That way, we can make sure that the Thirty Years' War gets off to the right start (which is hard to get starting earlier), & it is close enough to the English Civil War & the struggles in China to more or less ensure that they start as they should.
I was thinking more of a scenario where these cool new countries and conflicts are playable - a MP English Civil War or struggle for the Chinese crown could be exciting.
Btw, have you made the fantasy scenario where Wales is selectable? What about also making Flanders, Finland, Greece, Catalonia, Sicily or Sardinia available in this? These are all countries that might be fun to play but aren't playable in any scenario.

Ouch, I can see how that would cause a problem. I also asked mnorrefeldt to remove Calais from the event as well - England kept that province long after they had "lost" the HYW.
Yes, that sounds good.

No worries - it was a long discussion that happened a long time ago! It starts on the bottom of page 10, and goes to about page 34. :eek: It is both lengthy &, at times, repetitive. However, we did discuss extensively the question of CB shields, so there are some good comments on various CB possibilities amongst the posts. I am intrigued by your other idea (i.e. having Normandie & Caux controlled, not owned, by England), as you are right in that it should cause the HYW to continue for a while. When v1.4 comes out, I'll run a few tests to see how it works. I'm definitely in favour of anything that helps the initial stages of the HYW go a bit more historically.
I've actually been testing this with 1.4 beta recently and it works out well; the ai constantly tends to fight for about two years and in the eventual peace deal almost always England gets Normandie, Caux and Guyenne and Burgundy Picardie, which is just what I desire. But I agree that this will have to be furtherly worked out after 1.4. It might be a good idea to open up a Hundred Years War meta thread and to take the events and suggestions that have been posted in the French modification forum into account. They have very nice events and ideas not only for the HYW but also for the Wars of Religion, the Revolution, French general events and for Bretagne. I think I will try to translate some of this cool stuff in order to adapt it for EEP soon.
 

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Originally posted by Twoflower
I've actually been testing this with 1.4 beta recently and it works out well; the ai constantly tends to fight for about two years and in the eventual peace deal almost always England gets Normandie, Caux and Guyenne and Burgundy Picardie, which is just what I desire. But I agree that this will have to be furtherly worked out after 1.4. It might be a good idea to open up a Hundred Years War meta thread and to take the events and suggestions that have been posted in the French modification forum into account. They have very nice events and ideas not only for the HYW but also for the Wars of Religion, the Revolution, French general events and for Bretagne. I think I will try to translate some of this cool stuff in order to adapt it for EEP soon.

* Live from French Forum * :D

We are in a great effort of reworking all this events (overall HYW), so wait some weeks.

Modifications are very similar to all what you present : Normandie and Caux under English control, not owned ; Burgundy neutral at start ; no French minors except Provence ; a lot of events for Montereau, Treaty of Troyes, Treaty of Arras, "King of Bourges" and, of course, a large serie for Jeanne/Joan.

So if they can give some ideas for EEP, they are in "free consultation" on French forum. :)
 

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Just read through most of your events on the French forum. I think most of it would be a very good fit. Twoflower - I could help with translation. The things that I think might be contentious are
-the English cores
-the events that cede ownership to France as the war winds down.
 

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Originally posted by Isaac Brock
The things that I think might be contentious are
-the events that cede ownership to France as the war winds down.

A radical position, but "triggers" for those events are not automatic. If France don't choose a moderate policy against Burgundy, they don't appear.

To have them, Treaty of Arras must have been signed.

I consider that continental english ambitions, after Henry V's death, were only maintained with Burgundian support.
When Philip the Good changed side, associated with intern problems, all english positions in France were precarious. No treaty marked the end of HYW, so I think totally strange that France need two or three wars, and sometimes an invasion of England, to conquer continental provinces. :)

The exception, largely debated on french forum, is for Calais. This city will probably be out of this events.
 

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Originally posted by Sire Philippe
* Live from French Forum * :D

We are in a great effort of reworking all this events (overall HYW), so wait some weeks.

Modifications are very similar to all what you present : Normandie and Caux under English control, not owned ; Burgundy neutral at start ; no French minors except Provence ; a lot of events for Montereau, Treaty of Troyes, Treaty of Arras, "King of Bourges" and, of course, a large serie for Jeanne/Joan.

So if they can give some ideas for EEP, they are in "free consultation" on French forum. :)

I also find your work on the Wars of Religion and the mentioned Brittany stuff quite interesting; the EEP will definitely have a look at it.
That said, I'm not so sure on the French minors. Orléans and Auvergne should probably go, but I feel Bourbonnais, Foix and possibly Armagnac or Albret in Gascogne could be useful.
 

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Originally posted by Twoflower
That said, I'm not so sure on the French minors. Orléans and Auvergne should probably go, but I feel Bourbonnais, Foix and possibly Armagnac or Albret in Gascogne could be useful.

Bourbonnais, in his EU2 form, has no real historicity.

For Foix and others, they were great princes, but were they real minor countries ? In this conditions, why not Kent, Sussex, and anybody else ? "aristocracy slider" and "decentralization" are most realistic. The only exception is for Provence, a real state.

Armagnac don't appear in the events, but they are a revoltable minor country, which appear in some conditions : if France choose to ally with Duke of Burgundy at Montereau (instead of killing him :D ), Armagnac appear and immediatly ally with England. His territories are Guyenne and Cevennes. :)
 

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But weren't the Bourbonnais rather independent minded? I'm thinking of course especially of Charles. Of course I agree that Bourbonnais in Berri and Limousin is whacky; in fact it should replace Auvergne.
Foix inherited Navarra, therefore I'd say they have to start out independent in Béarn, otherwise events would get very weird (France seceding Béarn to Navarra because a French prince has inherited the Kingdom would be kinda stupid).
You cannot compare France only to England; I think the comparison to Germany and the HRE is just as viable and important, and I believe the structure France was somewhere in the middle between the complete decentralization of the HRE and the relatively effective rule of the English King, which is well represented by it having some independent vassals. Why would the expansion of the royal domain under the Bourbons have been so important for the rise of France otherwise?
 

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Originally posted by Twoflower
Why would the expansion of the royal domain under the Bourbons have been so important for the rise of France otherwise?

For Foix, I admit you're right. But relations between Foix, crown of Navarra and EU2's province of Bearn is not really easy. And I don't know precisely the question.

For expansion of royal domain, Bourbons don't really expand it a lot. Most of the "work" was already done during XIIIth century, starting with Philippe-Auguste. Royal power couldn't be easily defied, and no prince, with notable exception of Duke of Burgundy during XVth century, could really be considered as independant, or representing other thing than a "decentralization" aspect. Bourbons don't really expand domain ; they expand the absolutist form of the monarchy. :)

So I think existence of Orleans, Auvergne and Bourbonnais are not really pertinent. Revoltable minors (very discutable for Orleans), but not effective in 1419.
 

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Originally posted by Sire Philippe
So I think existence of Orleans, Auvergne and Bourbonnais are not really pertinent. Revoltable minors (very discutable for Orleans), but not effective in 1419.

How does removing those states affect the Anglo-French balance of power in the area in 1419? Does it make France too overpowered at the start, or does it help ensure that England can't go around getting easy 1-province annexations?

More generally, I'm all for more accurately modelling the Hundred Years' War. However, I'm afraid I can't read French ( :eek: ), so I'm sort of out of the loop in terms of what is being worked on. What are the events that cede ownership to France? Do those trigger once the French control an English-owned province in France? Also, what is being proposed in terms of English CB shields? I apologize for my linguistic ineptitude. :(
 

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Originally posted by Twoflower
Btw, have you made the fantasy scenario where Wales is selectable? What about also making Flanders, Finland, Greece, Catalonia, Sicily or Sardinia available in this? These are all countries that might be fun to play but aren't playable in any scenario.

I was just about to take a hack at it - I've been spending the past few days working on the Civil War stuff. I think for now I will stick with Wales - I wanted to do a scenario where one could play them because they do have the fantasy events. Perhaps we could later do another scenario for other minors like Flanders, Finland, etc.?
 

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JC, Obviously you won't be able to follow the discussion (or unfortunately the set up) but the scripts for the events are shown, so they are pretty self-evident.

There is a lot of detail, and I have no idea how it would play out, but have a look.

There are a bunch of Franco-Burgundy events by Sire Phillipe:
France Burgundy 1
France Burgundy 2
France Burgundy 3

And one thread on the Hundred Years War. This covers some of the others too.
Hundred Years War