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Originally posted by Crook

As for being rude/sarcastic -- I replied to you in exactly the same manner you posted -- mocking the EEP setup, that admitedly you didn't even play.

And that's the rub - if large numbers of people are playing with their own modified version of the EEP rather than the downloaded version the balance and historical play of everyone's version will be different, and it will be incredibly hard to work out what needs to be tweaked to improve the project,
 
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Originally posted by Crook


Meaning?

There are some uncomfortable facts about history.

The game is eurocentric. That is an accuarte reflection of not just European, but world history during much of the time-frame of the game. As Isaac intimated, decisions in Atjeh were not relavent to European welfare. Decsions made in Lisbon or the Hague were very relavent to Atjehs welfare.

I can readily see that the (accurate) eurocentricity of the game is uncomfortable for some. It is no excuse to create an inaccuate and unworkable historical model. There was little of significance wrong with the paradox model of the area in most peoples eyes. It should not have been tampered with (especially without any appreciable peer review process).
 
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Originally posted by Crook


Doesn't make sense. Why should we cripple some other country just because Portugal can't do what it did historically? Too much eurocentrism I'm afraid.

Might as well ask, "Why should we make a historical model?"...
 

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Originally posted by Crook


Doesn't make sense. Why should we cripple some other country just because Portugal can't do what it did historically? Too much eurocentrism I'm afraid.

"Europa Universalis". Not "World Universalis" or "Indonesia Universalis".

If I had wanted to play a game focusing on some other part of the world as the primary center of importance I probably would've passed on this one based on the title alone.

Max
 

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I based my original post on two assumptions:

1) that this was the EEP bug report and suggestion thread. Hence my bug reports and suggestions.

2) that this was a community based project based on community consensus and not the personal whims of any one person. Perhaps I'm mistaken - I don't follow any of the threads except for those dealing with specific national events or game mechanics, but I'm assuming based on the fact that Paradox is hosting this that the EEP isn't a single person's project, else it'd be on that person's own personal web site.

I didn't expect a rude reply when I posted what I considered to be bugs and problems on a thread labeled "EEP 1.1 Readme, bugs and suggestions". I'd appreciate it if further replies at least pretended to some measure of civility. These aren't an attack on anyone's manhood or common sense, just what I perceive as real identifiable problems in that they radically change the Paradox version of the game.

Please note that I said as much at the end of my original post. A bit of applied reading comprehension would be in order, I think.

Originally posted by Crook

They're historical, therefore should be there; Italy and Germany aren't.



Italy and Germany are historical, just not in the timeline. But again I thought this was a community project and that what went into the EEP was based on consensus. If Byzantium can make it into the fantasy events - and this is pure fantasy as a resurgent Byzantium could never happen, while Germany and Italy actually did - then I see no reason to exclude them.

On the other hand, I've seen no community demand for these other minor nations which were added. Hence my puzzlement over why these are included in the historical section (and they really do add nothing to game play) and Italy and Germany aren't included in the fantasy section.

The fact that they're historical is not at issue. There are plenty of non-historical inconsistencies in the Paradox game, yet these aren't corrected in the EEP.


Portugese do it even more often, so what's your point? Incorporating natives in Indonesia? :rolleyes: Unhistorical. TP is all they got there ever, and got kicked out on many occassions.


They whack the Paradox version of the game - no two ways about it. This I consider a bug. And as I said before - YMMV. Please read what I post before getting in a huff. If you *like* these changes then my comments are irrelevent. That, too, was in my previous post - the last line to be exact. Go back and take a gander - perhaps you missed it the first time around.


Well, not knowing history is one thing, claiming someone else doesn't is another.


The expansion of Atjeh and Malacca to include all of Indonesia and SE Asia is ahistorical. To include all of Indonesia sans SE Asia is also ahistorical. Adding a few of the provinces, e.g., Java, I can see, but not the crazy colonization they do now.

And please note - I never 'claimed that someone doesn't know the history of the area'. You did that, in the line above. Strawman, and a very rude one at that.


In my games they always do well, but sucked miserably in original Paradox's effort, so your point?


My point was that I thought this was the bugs and suggestions thread. Silly me. Guess my command of English isn't as good as I thought it was.


In general, I have to say that iconifying anything isn't good to your health, claiming that Paradox's original game full of inconsistencies is a "model' game is simply ridiculous.
Thank you very much for your comments.

I can do without the sarcasm and rudeness, thanks. If you don't care for my bug reports then give them a pass - but this is the bug report thread, or so I'm given to believe based on the title.

Max
 
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Originally posted by Crook


It means that if Atjeh retakes the provinces technically populated by fellow indonesians but for whatever reasons stating now to have "Portugese" culture, they're in for a big surprise.

It is easier to give Atjeh an event that changes the culture and Religion of the Javanese Provinces if they would ever conquer them from Portugal, than for Portugal to conquer every Indonesian Province from Atjeh or Malacca without CB and with subsequent BB-wars in Europe.
 

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And so, maxpublic is back after his err.... slightly forced vacation.:eek: jk! jk!
 

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Originally posted by Phillip V
And so, maxpublic is back after his err.... slightly forced vacation.:eek: jk! jk!

I'm afraid I'm at a loss. I am indeed on vacation (I work for a school district right now, so I have the summer off) but it certainly isn't forced. In fact, it's quite grand.

How you know about that is rather mystifying.

Max
 
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Originally posted by suo


It is easier to give Atjeh an event that changes the culture and Religion of the Javanese Provinces if they would ever conquer them from Portugal, than for Portugal to conquer every Indonesian Province from Atjeh or Malacca without CB and with subsequent BB-wars in Europe.


Thank you Suo, that idea just may get us out of an angry deadlock. Would this approach appease most people? I find it workable, as long as we put a stop to the new, unhistorical colonization and expansion (I am not overly supportive of any new minors in the area either.)
 

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Originally posted by Annibale



Thank you Suo, that idea just may get us out of an angry deadlock. Would this approach appease most people? I find it workable, as long as we put a stop to the new, unhistorical colonization and expansion (I am not overly supportive of any new minors in the area either.)

Why not just return the Indonesian states to their former non-colonizing selves and give them some of the currently unowned provinces? There's no justification for an Indonesian Empire formed up by Malacca or Atjeh in any event, and it's been my experience that the Europeans can't even fight a proper war against these minors in the regular version of the game, much less the super-charged EEP version.

If you return them to non-colonizers then at least an AI Portugal and Holland can put down some TP's, as they did historically.

Max
 

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I've found the Oman/India problem.

Because of the changes in the Persian/Indian area Oman tends to end up taking the capital of one of the powers in this region, which gives it knowledge of the Indian provinces. And since Oman is a colonizer it'll colonize all of the non-owned Indian provinces as soon as it's done with the Middle East and Eastern Africa.

No change was made to the EEP Oman AI file, so this could be considered an example of an unintended effect of EEP alterations, one that can only be discovered through running tests.

Because Oman takes the unowned provinces prior to the arrival of the Europeans there is no European colonization of India. In order for the Europeans to colonize this area they have to fight and win against Oman - and all of its allies. Something the AI just can't seem to accomplish.

Max
 

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Another tweak I discovered last night.

Aside from the Polish conquest of the Danzig COT, the changes to the Polish AI file are responsible for the widespread Polish gains in Germany. By adding POM and BOH Poland will get involved in wars with German minors and then conquer them. Because it now has interests in central Germany it'll get involved in further wars and make more conquests - and so on.

Removing both POM and BOH will end the Polish drive in this area.

Additional note: if you remove HUN as well Austria develops normally. That fixes the 'Austria turns into a minor power' bug. My second computer hummed along happily with a Paradox-like central Europe just by fixing the AI file for Polish expansion.

Max
 
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Sounds like the solution is to remove knowledge of the provinces in question from the Persian gulf states. They could still know about all of India, but not Goa et al.
 
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Aside from the Polish conquest of the Danzig COT, the changes to the Polish AI file are responsible for the widespread Polish gains in Germany. By adding POM and BOH Poland will get involved in wars with German minors and then conquer them. Because it now has interests in central Germany it'll get involved in further wars and make more conquests - and so on.

Yes they do ocassionally, but they normally lose them right away through defections/revolts.

No change was made to the EEP Oman AI file, so this could be considered an example of an unintended effect of EEP alterations, one that can only be discovered through running tests.
So, how can Oman capture anything but Baluchistan's capital is beyond me.

The fact that they're historical is not at issue. There are plenty of non-historical inconsistencies in the Paradox game, yet these aren't corrected in the EEP.

Surely, there are some still left, why wouldn't you give an example.

And please note - I never 'claimed that someone doesn't know the history of the area'. You did that, in the line above. Strawman, and a very rude one at that.
I'll remind you

- in a number of events for some nations, mostly in India and Asia, it seems as if the authors were quite fond of adding random domestic modifiers of land +1 or offensive +1 even though there's no historical justification whatsoever for such a change in the event. This seems to be an instance of 'author bias' for particular nations and I removed all of them.

You're saying that YOU know history of the world better than anyone else?

I think there is a big problem with your original post and mostly with your attitude: you can go and play EU1 now, there were no "unnecessary" minors cluttering the mapback then; I bet the map only have 3-4 countries in your games, no to impede the colonization, and clutter the map.

Thank you for telling us that 75% of EEP is garbage.
 
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Originally posted by Crook

Thank you for telling us that 75% of EEP is garbage.

While that may be putting it a bit strongly, there are many problems, and Max has, perhaps not so diplomatically, pointed them out. In addition, he and others have provided some concrete suggestions and solutions. Perhaps we should focus on that now.
 
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I personally have no wish to discuss anything with a person who is arrogant as he is, and makes derogatory and unfounded remarks to the effect of other people's knowledge.

Too many minors? they're useless -- clear them out. Austria sucks -- EEP fault (In my game they don't, so what does it prove?). Oman colonizes somewhere it's not supposed to -- EEP fault (again in my game they don't, so what does this prove?). Events suck (that's given).

His propositions: To return to revered original GC (that's a model -- who said that?). Classification of the bugs: anything steering away from the original GC is a bug :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

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Look, the tone may not have been very helpful, but I don't think the line of reasoning can be so easily dismissed. In terms of benchmarks the GC is a pretty good one - it's been tested a LOT for balance and "historically plausible outcomes", it's been played a LOT, and it pretty much defines what the typical player is used to before the EEP install. Obviously, in whatever form it takes, the play in the EEP is going to differ from the play in the GC, and whatever the differences is are people (ultimately meaning users) need to be happy with that. Otherwise what we're doing here is navel gazing, pure and simple.

I think that this means that there is a standard that the EEP needs to meet. Namely, that the 'playabilty' (a term which is pretty much impossible to define) and the 'historical plausibility' (in terms of outcome) of the EEP be at least as good as they are in the GC. In max's opinion in several aspects they are not. All of this is obviously subjective, and no one here represents the view of most of the users who've downloaded the EEP. But any suggestions needs to be considered, even if the attitude is not paticularly constructive.
 

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Originally posted by Crook


Yes they do ocassionally, but they normally lose them right away through defections/revolts.


In my games they go right back out and reconquer them, usually adding other minors along the way. Fixing the AI file takes care of all of this. It's an easy fix and it takes care of what I think is a fairly large problem in Central Europe.

So, how can Oman capture anything but Baluchistan's capital is beyond me.


They side with other powers in the area and end up taking a capital, thus getting the maps. That's the problem, in a nutshell. Nothing has been changed with respect to Oman - it's the other changes in the area which allow the Omani expansion.


You're saying that YOU know history of the world better than anyone else?


Nope. What I said, if you care to read my actual words, is that the events in and of themselves provide no justification whatsoever for changes to land and offensive bonuses. No explanations - they're just there. If there were an 'army reform' event, and this event was supported by an actual historical army reform, I wouldn't think twice about it.

Without a justification for *why* they're in events which have nothing to do with military reform I removed them. It was that simple. I did the same for many other events where the event itself provided no justification for the various changes. This just stood out because there were so many 'offensive +1' mods, and all of them in a particular area of the world.



I think there is a big problem with your original post and mostly with your attitude: you can go and play EU1 now, there were no "unnecessary" minors cluttering the mapback then; I bet the map only have 3-4 countries in your games, no to impede the colonization, and clutter the map.


The thread is clearly labeled 'bugs and suggestions'. I was unaware that it should actually read 'bugs and suggestions that Crook personally approves of'. It's unfortunate that you have a problem with the fact that I don't agree with many of the changes in the EEP, but it also happens to be irrelevant. The community will decide what to add, change or delete, and discussion over the matter is the only way to go about making those decisions in an intelligent manner that the majority of folks who use the EEP approve of.

As I've said to the point of nausea, these are my opinions only. If you're insulted by the fact that I don't think the EEP is perfect that's your problem, not mine. I'm rather tired of you taking personal offense to the fact that I think some things need to be changed and have the gall to actually list specific instances where I think work needs to be done.

Worse, not only have I done some of the actual work - of which I'm now thinking might have been a waste of time, as discussion of actual 'bugs and suggestions' doesn't seem to be the purpose of this thread - *but I've found fixes*. Gads. And I've posted them here for people who might be getting the same results, just in case they too might want to change things without having to run the (now 11) test games that I have.

Please note, Crook - time and time and time again I've used the words "I think" and "in my opinion". While you may not agree with my opinions bandying about personal insults as a way to shut down discussion is childish. You could simply say "I don't agree - I think things are fine" without heaping scorn like piles of steaming dung whenever you respond to my posts.

There is such a thing as polite disagreement. At least among adults.

Thank you for telling us that 75% of EEP is garbage.

There's also such a thing as not putting words into someone else's mouth. Please point out where, at any time I've said specifically: "75% of the EEP is garbage".

What I said, actually, was that I had tossed or modified 75% of the EEP events because *in my opinion* they skewed the game too much. I tossed them out of *my* game, Crook. Not your game, not anyone else's game, but *my* game, on *my* computer. Why this bothers you is entirely beyond me - I can do with my machine, my game, and my mods as I please and I can't see how anyone could reasonably object to this.

And I can post both the perceived problems, and the possible fixes, here on Paradox's forum without your permission. If you don't want to use them then don't use them. If they get put into the EEP you can always change your own game - like I have - to tailor it to your desires.

All of this is good. Maximal choice is the best outcome, hands down.

Max
 

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To focus on another matter....

Austria is no EEP problem. It's an "inheritance" problem. I had them in some normal games weak when they did not inherit anything.

In EEP 1.1 I played now the County of Holland up to 1600. Austria was almost taken out by 1500 because they got nothing from the inheritance of Burgundy as Burgundy owned nothing in the low countries any more. But that was MY fault, not the AIs, because I played the County of Holland ahistoric to stay in the game.

Up to 1600 Austria inherited Bohemia (or the single province Poland had left them), Milan (which had conquered Tirol and Steiermark before...) and Hungary and are back as a major power in central Europe.
 

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Originally posted by suo
To focus on another matter....

Austria is no EEP problem. It's an "inheritance" problem. I had them in some normal games weak when they did not inherit anything.

The problem I'm running into in the EEP game is that the new Polish AI file has Poland kicking the crap out of Bohemia and Hungary. The Ottomans, therefore, have an easier time with Hungary and usually reduce it to one or two provinces, while Bohemia loses a couple to Poland, then others to German minors (Hungary has been conquered completely prior to the inheritance in four of my 11 test games, something I never witnessed until now).

When Austria inherits it gets so few provinces that Venice and expansionist German minors have a field day on it. This did indeed occur occasionally in the Paradox game but I've yet to see a resurgent Austria in EEP 1.1.

However, after fixing the Polish AI file I found a complete change in Central Europe. Everything back to normal, which I personally like better than a dead Austria and a really big Poland/Venetia/Saxony/etc.

Unfortunately Burgundy still gets destroyed prior to inheritance and I have yet to figure out why. I mean, they get walloped, in every game, completely buggered, which is perplexing. I'm going to remove all of the Burgundy events to see if that makes any difference and try another test game (I don't think it will but I'm clueless on this change and don't have any better ideas).

Max