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Havard

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Originally posted by Maur13
Btw, i have another two questions. How much Havard and Demetrios contribute to EEP?

And what really Threadmasters do?
I can only speak for myself, but I think I can say I doesn't contribute much. I have posted some Spanish events I was working on for an official patch (and then I missed the deadline because I forgot to send the texts :eek:). I read all the threads (moderating duty), and will comment on things I know. In many cases I haven't got enough knowledge on the topic, and will then not comment. In addition to that I host the download.

The idea of the organisation was to divide the world into regions (like Western Europe, Scandinavia, etc) and have one person collect the results of the discussions for submission. That person is the threadmaster. The problem came when we got too much traffic in some areas, some groups split of to more specific threads and so on, many of these threads without threadmasters...
 

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Originally posted by Havard

The idea of the organisation was to divide the world into regions (like Western Europe, Scandinavia, etc) and have one person collect the results of the discussions for submission. That person is the threadmaster. The problem came when we got too much traffic in some areas, some groups split of to more specific threads and so on, many of these threads without threadmasters...

The other problems are that there are missing in action threadmasters, and that people who have a good idea just go and start their own thread, like EEP Grenada, instead of posting it in the EEP Iberia.

alberta.gif
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Originally posted by Havard

I can only speak for myself, but I think I can say I doesn't contribute much. I have posted some Spanish events I was working on for an official patch (and then I missed the deadline because I forgot to send the texts :eek:). I read all the threads (moderating duty), and will comment on things I know. In many cases I haven't got enough knowledge on the topic, and will then not comment. In addition to that I host the download.

The idea of the organisation was to divide the world into regions (like Western Europe, Scandinavia, etc) and have one person collect the results of the discussions for submission. That person is the threadmaster. The problem came when we got too much traffic in some areas, some groups split of to more specific threads and so on, many of these threads without threadmasters...

That's too bad, since both you and Demetrios are knowldegeable and unbiased (well, at least when it not comes to Norway:p;)) people.

So the system isn't exactly working, is it? What about changing it then in some way?

Like closing all non-area threads? Or appointing two or more threadmasters for each area?

EDIT/ come to think of it, those ideas are rather stupid. But something isn't working, and it needs to be fixed.
 
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And let me do some creative editing, and move this post to this page:D
======
Yes, i know most people played IGC because it allowed to play any nation. But not only, as editing it was really easy, yet many who could do it played it.

I don't know. There are changes i like, they are changes i don't care at all, and they are changes that are just outrageous, and that's why i don't play EEP

(even though i would really like to play English continuation of 100yrs war events)

I almost didn't participated in IGC making, but i remember the discussions. The changes were very small, extensively discussed, and why one and not the other decision was made was clear to everyone. Yet, EEP doesn't even has a decent readme file.

Let me remind you of Vorones/Bogutjar issue. It was discussed a lot, if it should go to Golden Horde, or Lithuania. The outcome wasn't perfect, but everyone knew it, at least everyone who cared.

While i did rally like two provinces Lotharingien, i could live with it reduced to one after reading some knowledgeable posts about this issue.

Or if Low countries should belong to Austria or Spain in 1492.



Yet, here someone comes up with an event, and often the reason behind it is just ridiculous. (sorry, can't give an example right now. But you should have know that)

Same with culture, or another changes. Someone say that those poeple we of different culture because they have spoken different language. Fuck that, culture in this game is artificial concept, it isn't for show, it affects many things, and game balance can be really screwed.

Then Crook just judges what should go in, and what shouldn't. For you who participate in History forums, you know that Crook is hardly unbiased, objective person:p

Yes, i think Crook is a problem here.

As Korath put in more gentle way. And Barrister Boy is right too, when he says EEP changes too much without enough justification.





On a side note. This is a game. If some change seriously alters game balance, even if it's historically accurate, it shouldn't be implemented. At least not in that way.
 

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You're right about all those IGC issues, there was plenty of debate and some were never settled (Netherlands). On the other hand there wasn't as much debate on things like SE Asian nations, and events for various countries (Persia is an example I can think of).

The scope of the EEP is much bigger than that of the IGC because we are talking about events for every country. This means a lot of issues get less attention. Some of this may be circular, if more people were playing it more attention would get paid to many issues.

Getting back to the IGC model (which I agree was much more sucessful), there was no formal mechanism there on what was in and what was out. In the end Doomdark made the decision. Now he did a truly excellent job, but as he's now employed by Paradox I don't think he'll be helping out on this forum!

Someone has got to be exercising editorial control. And I don't want to because it's too much work.
 
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Originally posted by Isaac Brock
And I don't want to because it's too much work.

You are always mentioning how lazy you are. :D ;)

Anyway, I think it would be a great idea if there was a more democratic process to decide what goes in and what doesn't. It is alot of work for just one person to make all these decisions, and then some might not agree with it. So I think popular opinion should prevail.
 

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The question is how.
 

suo

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Originally posted by BarristerBoy


The other problems are that there are missing in action threadmasters, and that people who have a good idea just go and start their own thread, like EEP Grenada, instead of posting it in the EEP Iberia.

alberta.gif
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Some of the current threads are a reall mess if you did not follow them from the beginning. And it is not really easy to follow three or four different discussions over different countries and topics in a single thread.

Maybe there should be one threadmaster for a region, but it is much easier to follow separate threads for each country.
 

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Not a bad idea - have a threadmaster for each region, and if a specific country or sub-region gatehrs enough interest that threadmaster can open a new sub-thread.

But often times the problem with separating things down too fine is that events from one country will necessitate events for neighboring countries. My latest effort to make a few Ukrainian events has actually meant that I've had to code more events for Poland and Russia than for Ukraine!

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Originally posted by BarristerBoy
Not a bad idea - have a threadmaster for each region, and if a specific country or sub-region gatehrs enough interest that threadmaster can open a new sub-thread.

But often times the problem with separating things down too fine is that events from one country will necessitate events for neighboring countries. My latest effort to make a few Ukrainian events has actually meant that I've had to code more events for Poland and Russia than for Ukraine!

alberta.gif
BarristerBoy
It's natural though. One thing that happens to a country could have been what another country has done or it affects another country. When I did events for my country of Cambodia, I ended up having to connect the events with new ones for Ayutthaya, Dai Viet, Champa, and even Spain! Anyways, this has actually made me think of making events for those "affected" countries....
 

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Originally posted by maxpublic
- The English events make it incredibly easy for a player to annex France as a core country and from that point on the game is over. Play balance is thrown right out the window. While the AI usually fails to pull this off, I've had little difficulty doing this as a human. These events kill game balance and should be removed, or at least moved to the fantasy section (or perhaps the 'easy world conquest for beginners' section).

Just so you know, the English Hundred Years' War events are under review in the EEP British Isles thread. While I can't say how they will be changed, it does appear that they will be, & in general will be likely slanted towards making it a bit more difficult for England to conquer (not that anything can really stop a determined human player).
 

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I think a formal way of keeping track of the status of events would help. I propose reorganizing the forum, with the following five sticky threads: Europe, Asia and the middle East, Africa and the Americas, random events.

The first post in each thread, which someone will need to maintain, will formally set out the status of the EEP in that area. It will contain a list of events with their names, their author's names, one-line descriptions of their effects, ideally a link to the thread containing the event, and whether the event has been suggested, rejected, or accepted in some version of the EEP. The status of an event on this list can only change after the event has been debated and someone has bothered the person maintaining the list.

Alternatively, everyone can post brief descriptions of their own events in these lists, and update them themselves.

We could also do with a sticky post keeping track of the progress of the project in general, ie. what needs to be done and when something has been finished.

This is meant to achieve two things. Firstly to give a way to split the work of coordinating the project between several people, secondly to allow everyone to see what is being changed.

If people like this way of splitting the workload, or if there are other suggestions of ways to do this, I would be willing to help out. I don't know a lot about history, but I have some free time until september.
 

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Originally posted by Pishtaco
I think a formal way of keeping track of the status of events would help. I propose reorganizing the forum, with the following five sticky threads: Europe, Asia and the middle East, Africa and the Americas, random events.

The first post in each thread, which someone will need to maintain, will formally set out the status of the EEP in that area. It will contain a list of events with their names, their author's names, one-line descriptions of their effects, ideally a link to the thread containing the event, and whether the event has been suggested, rejected, or accepted in some version of the EEP. The status of an event on this list can only change after the event has been debated and someone has bothered the person maintaining the list.

Alternatively, everyone can post brief descriptions of their own events in these lists, and update them themselves.

We could also do with a sticky post keeping track of the progress of the project in general, ie. what needs to be done and when something has been finished.

This is meant to achieve two things. Firstly to give a way to split the work of coordinating the project between several people, secondly to allow everyone to see what is being changed.

If people like this way of splitting the workload, or if there are other suggestions of ways to do this, I would be willing to help out. I don't know a lot about history, but I have some free time until september.

I think this is a really good idea, Pishtaco. Who would be responsible for maintaining these threads? A special threadmaster, or just the threadmaster(s) and/or contributor(s) to the smaller threads?
 

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Originally posted by Johnny Canuck


I think this is a really good idea, Pishtaco. Who would be responsible for maintaining these threads? A special threadmaster, or just the threadmaster(s) and/or contributor(s) to the smaller threads?
Aren't there already threadmasters? Anyways, many of them are MIA, so I can volunteer to take over the Asia and Byzantium thread.
 
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Originally posted by Johnny Canuck


I think this is a really good idea, Pishtaco. Who would be responsible for maintaining these threads? A special threadmaster, or just the threadmaster(s) and/or contributor(s) to the smaller threads?

How about the threadmasters be elected officials, elected the 1st of every month by the forum users, via poll.

The 1st of july is coming up. ;)
 

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Originally posted by Captain Krunch


How about the threadmasters be elected officials, elected the 1st of every month by the forum users, via poll.

The 1st of july is coming up. ;)
That's good. That way, MIA threadmasters can be removed when neccessary. Potential threadmasters can nominate themselves cuz only they know if they can handle the job or not.
 

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Originally posted by Johnny Canuck


I think this is a really good idea, Pishtaco. Who would be responsible for maintaining these threads? A special threadmaster, or just the threadmaster(s) and/or contributor(s) to the smaller threads?

Well, the purpose of these lists is to record the decisions made by the community, in one place. Probably the mechanics of vBulletin mean that each list will have to be maintained by one person. In principle, maintaining it is just an administrative job, distinct from the jobs of, on the one hand, designing and choosing the events, and on the other, building them into a game. Perhaps one person could do them all -- how many events are there in the EEP so far ? [And no one has asked this yet, but how many should there be when we're finished?]

If the threadmaster keeps his list as a text file offline, he can email it to someone else if he has to go missing for a while.

Are there likely to be so many volunteers that we will need polls?
 

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Okay, this concludes my testing for a bit. One post and I'm off to play my newly created Kingdom of Hawaii. Can't wait to see if I can conquer those nasty Nipponese!

In any event, I 'solved' both of Persian and Burgundian problems, although I don't think solved is the right word here. What I did was take a very, very big axe to the area and keep chopping until the problems disappeared. The real work would be to slowly add the events back in and run 'hand-off' games until you hit whatever it is that's mucking things up (e.g., Persian death, abnormally huge Mameluke empires, Omani colonization of India, the conquest of Delhi, etc.).

Side note: Making the Indonesian countries non-colonizers allows them to knock each other around without removing all the possible tp sites for Portugal and Holland. In one game, for example, Malacca still conquered most of SE Asia - but hey, who cares? Well, I'm sure somebody does, but that somebody ain't me, so I'm done with that area of the world.

In Persia/Central Asia/India I essentially ended up taking out all of the new minors and just about all of the country-specific events, including the Uzbek ones that I was particularly fond of (sigh). It worked like a charm - expansion is Paradox normal, no more Omani trade empires spanning from Africa to India, etc. What this means is that the effects aren't secondary outside of this region, i.e., it's events, or new nations, within the region that are disrupting the balance so much.

However, because there are *so many* events and three or four new minors, and because I've spent far too much time testing and not enough actually playing for enjoyment, I leave it up to someone else to drudge through all the hands-off games. What you essentially have to do is add back in some events, run a few games, and see if things start to regularly skew. If they don't, then add back in some more and repeat. And repeat. And even with a second very fast computer this can take a long, long time, so some real dedication is required. Keep going until you see one of the signs (e.g., the Omani occupation of India) and then you'll know you've hit the bug.

So all I've 'solved' here is that the bug is region-specific and has nothing to do with changes in Europe, Africa, or Pacific Asia. Not much of a solution. However, some intelligent guesswork would indicate that the Uzbek events, for example, have nothing to do with it and could be added back in without a problem (I just didn't have the patience to run another test game). Others similarly so when it's clear that event is very specific and doesn't change things much, or will only do so if a player is in charge (e.g., options 'b').

Oddly enough, the whacking of the Persian/Central Asian/Indian stuff also put Russia back on track. So it appears that the Russian events are just fine, but that the Russians are being stalled out by developments in this area. Remove the changes and the Russians chug along normally, with or without the Russian EEP events (sans the Moscow COT, which I removed after the first game and never put back). However, this also assumes that you alter the Poland AI as I discussed previously, since the altered Poland AI is what I was using for the later tests.

In Burgundy I tried something different: I gave Orleans to the French (along with an extra 10k army to make up for the lost Orleanaisse forces ) and Picardie to the Burgundians. Lo and behold the guess paid off and this region also stabilized right away, in the first game - and second, and third. Burgundy hung around until it got cut up via event, France still eventually consolidated (though no faster than normal).

I still have no idea why Burgundy falls so quickly in EEP 1.1. I found a way to prevent this but can't put my finger on the problem itself. I believe it's secondary, e.g., a 'ripple effect' from Central Europe but if that's so the cause would be a royal headache to track down.

BTW, as game-altering as the HYW events can be for a player, they've made zero difference when the AI controls England. You can leave in every single one of those events and they alter nothing, unless a player is at the helm. Although I think it makes playing England way too easy, the coders for the English/French events did a damned good job of making sure that they didn't radically change the game when those nations are played by the AI. The English/French events are the biggest and most numerous changes in the lot and they don't do squat to the balance of power in a hands-off game - very impressive. Those folks should think about beta-testing for Paradox if/when EU3 gets into the alpha stage.

One final note: fantasy Byzantium, when played by the AI, tends to hang on longer than the non-fantasy version and about 70% of the time really cripples Ottoman expansion. If you, personally, aren't going to play Byzantium but want the Ottomans to expand normally I'd suggest swapping out the new Byzantium files with the old ones, if you've opted for the fantasy install. When you want to play Byzantium just swap them back in again.

Max
 
Feb 1, 2002
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Don't know if this was a problem for AI Burgundy, but the eep does not give them dutch culture, that seems like it would hurt them.

In addition, here is the list of Natl. provinces for Bur in the eep.

Code:
    nationalprovinces = { 
        380 387 409 375 376 379 382 383 384 385 386 406 407 408 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426
    }

Now, here is the paradox list...
Code:
    nationalprovinces = { 
        337 338 339 340 374 375 377 378 379 380 387 409 
    }

The largest additions seem to be French provinces like Maine, Poitou, Normandy, Armor, Bretagne, Limousin, etc. -Seems a little overboard to me...
In combo with the Lotharingia CB shields, I have to say that is waay overboard.

BTW, I have an alternate, very toned down version of the Lotharingia event which just gives
a) 'we are happy with title'-gives dip bonus, + relations, centralization.
b), C), D) -pressing terretorial claims in North, East, and South respectively, gets you 10 yr. CB vs nation- NO CB shields-drops in relations, and still triggers Isaac Brocks events for countries whose terretory you are after (toned Issacs response events down to 10 yr. CB as well, since Bur, in this version, does not get the CB shields anymore. )

Seemed more reasonable to me.

Code:
#The Ascension#
event = {
	id = 20084
	random = no
	country = BUR
	name = "King Philip"
	desc = "Philip the Good has been crowned king of Lotharingia.  God save the King!  Where shall we press out ancient claims?"
	style = 1

	action_a ={				#Be Content with the Title#
		name = "Be Content with Title"
		command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = 3 }
		command = { type = stability value = 2 }
		command = { type = DIP   which = 2 value = 120 }
		command = { type = relation which = OLD value = 50 } 
		command = { type = relation which = MUN value = 50 } 
		command = { type = relation which = KOL value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = KLE value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = PFA value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HEL value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = PRO value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = SAV value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 50 }
 		command = { type = sleepevent which = 20100 }
 		command = { type = sleepevent which = 20085 }
	}

	 action_b ={		#Press Claims in North#
		name = "Press Claims in North"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = casusbelli which = OLD value = 120 } 
		command = { type = casusbelli which = MUN value = 120 } 
		command = { type = casusbelli which = KOL value = 120 } 
		command = { type = relation which = OLD value = -50 } 
		command = { type = relation which = MUN value = -50 } 
		command = { type = relation which = KOL value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = KLE value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = PFA value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = PRO value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = SAV value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -50 }
 		command = { type = sleepevent which = 20100 }
 		command = { type = sleepevent which = 20085 }
		command = { type = trigger   which = 20313 }
      	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20314 }
	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20315 }
	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20316 }
 	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20317 }
		command = { type = trigger   which = 20318 }
	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20319 }
		command = { type = trigger   which = 20320 }
	}

	action_c ={		#Press Claims in East#
		name = "Press Claims in East"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = casusbelli which = KLE value = 120 } 
		command = { type = casusbelli which = PFA value = 120 } 
		command = { type = casusbelli which = HEL value = 120 }
		command = { type = relation which = OLD value = -50 } 
		command = { type = relation which = MUN value = -50 } 
		command = { type = relation which = KOL value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = KLE value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = PFA value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = PRO value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = SAV value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -50 }
 		command = { type = sleepevent which = 20100 }
 		command = { type = sleepevent which = 20085 }
		command = { type = trigger   which = 20313 }
      	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20314 }
	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20315 }
	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20316 }
 	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20317 }
		command = { type = trigger   which = 20318 }
	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20319 }
		command = { type = trigger   which = 20320 }
	}

	action_d ={		#Press Claims in South#
		name = "Press Claims in South"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = casusbelli which = PRO value = 120 } 
		command = { type = casusbelli which = SAV value = 120 } 
		command = { type = casusbelli which = FRA value = 120 }
		command = { type = relation which = OLD value = -50 } 
		command = { type = relation which = MUN value = -50 } 
		command = { type = relation which = KOL value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = KLE value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = PFA value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = PRO value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = SAV value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -50 }
 		command = { type = sleepevent which = 20100 }
 		command = { type = sleepevent which = 20085 }
		command = { type = trigger   which = 20313 }
      	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20314 }
	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20315 }
	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20316 }
 	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20317 }
		command = { type = trigger   which = 20318 }
	        command = { type = trigger   which = 20319 }
		command = { type = trigger   which = 20320 }
	}
}

Back to the mines!;)
 
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