Edge of Europe - A Belgian Interactive AAR

[DensleyBlair]

((Yup. Not sure what is going on there.))

((That's actually the second time I've posted it. The first post messed up, so I figured that deleting and reposting might do the trick, but it was to no avail. All of the BBCode is in the right order as far as I can tell, so I really don't know what it could be...))

 

[DensleyBlair]

((yourworstnightmare, in the interests of being able to read the thread, I propose that we both delete our respective posts. Then I'll republish my bill in plain text, and you can re-respond accordingly. Hopefully that'll fix things...

EDIT: I managed to fix my original bill. Turns out there was some dodgy coding... Here it is: ))

Sir, do you seek to cause a divide within our nascent country? Surely arbitrarily defining who gets to speak which language by surrounding a region with only tongue will do nothing to unite us?

Instead, I propose the following:

The Bilingualism Act​

1. All government officials (defined as those employed by the executive or legislative branch) shall be required to speak both French and Flemish Dutch.
2. All members of the judiciary shall also be required to speak both languages.
3. All members of the Officer Corps in the military shall be required to speak both languages.
   
   • All non-officer members of the military shall be given language lessons during training should it be required.
4. All public signage (defined as that installed or paid for by the government, or on governmental buildings) shall be bilingual.

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

((yourworstnightmare, would you still consider re-replying so we have a legible thread? Thanks.))

 

[yourworstnightm]

((yourworstnightmare, in the interests of being able to read the thread, I propose that we both delete our respective posts. Then I'll republish my bill in plain text, and you can re-respond accordingly. Hopefully that'll fix things...

EDIT: I managed to fix my original bill. Turns out there was some dodgy coding... Here it is: ))

Sir, do you seek to cause a divide within our nascent country? Surely arbitrarily defining who gets to speak which language by surrounding a region with only tongue will do nothing to unite us?

Instead, I propose the following:

The Bilingualism Act​

1. All government officials (defined as those employed by the executive or legislative branch) shall be required to speak both French and Flemish Dutch.
2. All members of the judiciary shall also be required to speak both languages.
3. All members of the Officer Corps in the military shall be required to speak both languages.
   
   • All non-officer members of the military shall be given language lessons during training should it be required.
4. All public signage (defined as that installed or paid for by the government, or on governmental buildings) shall be bilingual.

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

((yourworstnightmare, would you still consider re-replying so we have a legible thread? Thanks.))

That would solve nothing. Even if it's required for officials in Flandern to be able to speak Dutch, they'd still just speak French all the time. Flandern need a Dutch speaking administration, a Dutch speaking bureaucracy and a Dutch speaking Court system for our language to survive. When it comes to the army it need separate legislation. We need to differentiate training langages (our soldiers should be trained and educated in their mother tongue) and a command language, since on the battlefield obviously the commands shall all be in one language that everyone need to understand.

((reposted, and deleted the first post.))

 

[DensleyBlair]

That would solve nothing. Even if it's required for officials in Flandern to be able to speak Dutch, they'd still just speak French all the time. Flandern need a Dutch speaking administration, a Dutch speaking bureaucracy and a Dutch speaking Court system for our language to survive. When it comes to the army it need separate legislation. We need to differentiate training langages (our soldiers should be trained and educated in their mother tongue) and a command language, since on the battlefield obviously the commands shall all be in one language that everyone need to understand.

((reposted, and deleted the first post.))

That is not the point of the bill, Mijnheer. My bill allows for officials to be able to deal with a situation in which we find a Dutch speaker in Wallonia, for example. The bureaucracy would be able to adapt so that we would not have to bring translators in, or deny someone a service based upon their location. Surely strictly defining where one can speak a certain language dies more to discriminate than giving people the choice? You will notice my act is The Bilingualism Act. I am promoting that Belgium be a country not defined by a divide in language, but a country of two identities able to converse freely with one another. Believe me, sir, I am as proud a Fleming as any, but I see that we must adapt in order to keep Belgium a unified nation.

I belove you may also have misunderstood the part pertaining to the military. The idea is not that we train soldiers in alien languages, but that we give them a proficiency in both, so that it becomes irrelevant which language is used as a command language. Note once again, sir, the act promotes bilingualism, not segregation. How on Earth do you expect our soldiers to fight together if we have separate French and Dutch regiments who are unable to converse with one another? I am a military man, sir – I speak from experience.

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

((Cheers.))

 

[yourworstnightm]

That is not the point of the bill, Mijnheer. My bill allows for officials to be able to deal with a situation in which we find a Dutch speaker in Wallonia, for example. The bureaucracy would be able to adapt so that we would not have to bring translators in, or deny someone a service based upon their location. Surely strictly defining where one can speak a certain language dies more to discriminate than giving people the choice? You will notice my act is The Bilingualism Act. I am promoting that Belgium be a country not defined by a divide in language, but a country of two identities able to converse freely with one another. Believe me, sir, I am as proud a Fleming as any, but I see that we must adapt in order to keep Belgium a unified nation.

I belove you may also have misunderstood the part pertaining to the military. The idea is not that we train soldiers in alien languages, but that we give them a proficiency in both, so that it becomes irrelevant which language is used as a command language. Note once again, sir, the act promotes bilingualism, not segregation. How on Earth do you expect our soldiers to fight together if we have separate French and Dutch regiments who are unable to converse with one another? I am a military man, sir – I speak from experience.

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

((Cheers.))

And obviously you are sacrificing the Dutch language to get your unified nation. This law won't change anything, and the Flemish people would just continue to have administrators and bureaucrats that refuse to speak Dutch. My law would solve that, by clearly state that the administrative language in Dutch speaking territories is Dutch.

 

[DensleyBlair]

How on Earth am I 'sacrificing the Dutch language'? That, sir, is nonsense. My bill does nothing of the sort, and instead promotes the language by teaching it to all Belgians – Walloon and Fleming – in defined areas. I doubt that the average Fleming will up sticks and begin speaking French just because they are now proficient in the language. During my time in Sumatra, I learnt some of the Natives' language, but I don't use that in my daily discourse.

If anything, in teaching Flemish Dutch to a wider group within society, my bill aids the language. If anything, your bill is the one that confines the language to Flanders.

~Jan-Francis van der Wyngaert, Burggraaf van Sint-Niklaas, MWO

 

[Thoctar]

I believe the Germans should have their own linguistic autonomy within their territories. I speak both Flemish and Dutch, but I believe, if I so choose, I have the right to be taught German and speak German in my own land.

 

[DensleyBlair]

I believe the Germans should have their own linguistic autonomy within their territories. I speak both Flemish and Dutch, but I believe, if I so choose, I have the right to be taught German and speak German in my own land.

Though I appreciate the sentiment, mein Herr, I'm afraid giving the Germans linguistic autonomy would be like giving the French in Sardinia linguistic autonomy. Whereas Germans are of course free to speak German, having such autonomy would largely be impractical.not to mention it could raise the question of other immigrant communities having such autonomy.

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

((At this point in time, the East Cantons are Prussian, so any Germans would be sporadic. There are no 'German territories,' per se – rather just German immigrants and settlers.))

 

[Otto of england]

I am going to run for leadership of the Belgian consitutional union.

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

 

[yourworstnightm]

How on Earth am I 'sacrificing the Dutch language'? That, sir, is nonsense. My bill does nothing of the sort, and instead promotes the language by teaching it to all Belgians – Walloon and Fleming – in defined areas. I doubt that the average Fleming will up sticks and begin speaking French just because they are now proficient in the language. During my time in Sumatra, I learnt some of the Natives' language, but I don't use that in my daily discourse.

If anything, in teaching Flemish Dutch to a wider group within society, my bill aids the language. If anything, your bill is the one that confines the language to Flanders.

~Jan-Francis van der Wyngaert, Burggraaf van Sint-Maarten, MWO

And you really think this will change the attitudes of the French? No, merely it will keep the status quo. The Flemish bureaucracy will be stuffed with Walloons, and nobles of the kind that see Dutch as a language of "peasants and weavers", and refuse to ever speak it because it wouldn't be a noble thing to do. Meanwhile all Flemings are forced to communicate with their local authorities in French, because they wouldn't speak Dutch.

 

[Otto of england]

And you really think this will change the attitudes of the French? No, merely it will keep the status quo. The Flemish bureaucracy will be stuffed with Walloons, and nobles of the kind that see Dutch as a language of "peasants and weavers", and refuse to ever speak it because it wouldn't be a noble thing to do. Meanwhile all Flemings are forced to communicate with their local authorities in French, because they wouldn't speak Dutch.

Aye, its time that flanders speaks dutch first. The french language has been forced on flanders too long, its time for change now.

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

 

[DensleyBlair]

And you really think this will change the attitudes of the French? No, merely it will keep the status quo. The Flemish bureaucracy will be stuffed with Walloons, and nobles of the kind that see Dutch as a language of "peasants and weavers", and refuse to ever speak it because it wouldn't be a noble thing to do. Meanwhile all Flemings are forced to communicate with their local authorities in French, because they wouldn't speak Dutch.

And why will the Flemish bureaucracy be 'stuffed with Walloons'? I appreciate that such organisations aren't always the most expeditious or pragmatic, but I don't see how an authority would be so stupid as to enure that those to whim they provide a service wouldn't be able to get said services. I also ask on what authority you have this view of Walloons as arrogant people who wouldn't deign to speak Dutch? It would seem to me as if you are deliberately trying to incite a cultural division between us, which would hardly be conducive to allowing our nascent state to flourish, would it?

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

 

[yourworstnightm]

And why will the Flemish bureaucracy be 'stuffed with Walloons'? I appreciate that such organisations aren't always the most expeditious or pragmatic, but I don't see how an authority would be so stupid as to enure that those to whim they provide a service wouldn't be able to get said services. I also ask on what authority you have this view of Walloons as arrogant people who wouldn't deign to speak Dutch? It would seem to me as if you are deliberately trying to incite a cultural division between us, which would hardly be conducive to allowing our nascent state to flourish, would it?

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

I have grown up in Flandern. I know the Flemish bureaucracy and what kind of people who run it, they are all either Walloons or nobles who has become Francophone. The Dutch tried to change it, but that was just before the revolution, so they never got anywhere with that. My father was one of those nobles. He never spoke Dutch in public, because he thought that would belittle our family.

 

[Dadarian]

His August Presence stands up

Gentlemen, it is time to bring a flurry of subjects up to the legislative process.

The Belgian Proclamation on Trade

I. All Belgian Trade shall be free of any and all government interference outside of the House of Trade
II. The government shall assist all Belgian trade as deemed for by the Minister of Trade

Ministry of Trade

I. The Minister of Trade shall be elected by the House of Traders
II. The House of Traders shall consist of all bankers, traders, merchants and members of the economic community that can match the buy in
III. The buy in of the House of Trade (hereafter HoT) is 100.000 pounds sterling
IV. There is not limitation on the number of representives in the HoT
V. Corporation are hereafter defined as persons and are entitled to a single seat if they can match the buy in
VI. A member of the HoT is referred to as a "Trader" and may be addressed as "His Honourable"
VII. The HoT can elect one (1) member to stand as the Minister of Trade for the government
VIII. If the Minister of Trade loses confidence of either the monarch or the HoT, he may be recalled and a different individual may be appointed by the monarch or elected by the monarch.
IX. The Minister of Trade is in control of all decisions regarding government policy on trade
X. All money raised by the buy in into the HoT will be entered into the Government coffers

The Belgian Foreign Guard Bill
I. The main element dedicated to securing, defending and expanding any future colonial or overseas territory be the Belgian Foreign Guard (hereafter BFG)
II. The BFG is open to any and all men who wish to serve that meet the physical requirements
III. The BFG is blind to the following in its members: class, nationality, criminal record
IV. The BFG shall be commanded by a member of the regular army
V. All members must be able to speak French, if not they will be taught French
VI. If a member of the BFG is shot or otherwise honourably wounded in battle, they are guaranteed Belgian citizenship if they so choose

The Currency Bill
I. The National Currency of Belgium shall be the Belgian Franc
II. The Belgian Franc shall be pegged to gold
III. Only the Government of Belgium can control the input and output of Belgian currency, be it in paper or coinage
IV. The Ministry of Finance is in charge of the regulation of the Belgian Franc

The Prisoner Bill
I. All Prisoners are entitled to two (2) full meals a day
II. All Prisoners are entitled to full water rations
III. All Prisoners are not able to be denied counsel if they can afford it

The Defense of Private Industry Bill

I. All Private Industries are exempt from excessive taxation by the Belgian government
II. All Private Industries are exempt from excessive Government legislation
III. In no way can the government ever seize, own or otherwise unlawfully control Private Industries

The Regency Council of Belgium
Written by His August Presence Wilhelm Vanderhoof​

The following will become the official legislation on the regency of Belgium, if needed.

I. A Council of Five (Raad van Vijf/Conseil des Cinq) shall convene following the implementation of this article.
II. The Council will consist of the following: A member of each current major party in Belgium, a member of the clergy, aristocracy, judiciary, military and industrialists.
III. The Council shall exist until the appointment of the next King of Belgium, whomever he/she may be.
IV. The Council shall jointly appoint a new member if a current Councillor has to vacate his position.
V. The Council shall act in the name of the King in all ways.
VI. The Council will dissolve following the election of a new King, whomever he/she may be.

 

[Marschalk]

His August Presence stands up

Gentlemen, it is time to bring a flurry of subjects up to the legislative process.

I am afraid, that is your proposal on the Ministry of Trade may be deemed unconstitutional. You want the Minister of Trade, a member of the government, to be elected by a small group of people, merchants and traders. According to the Constitution, only the Prime Minister is empowered to establish ministries and to appoint Cabinet members (Article IV, Section 2).

And I dont think, that we should amend our Constitution and give the traders such influence over governmental affairs, when the clergy and the nobility do not have any special rights at all. This measure may infringe on the unity of the Cabinet, and lead to corruption.

- Charles, Prince de Ligne

 

[Dadarian]

We have a man who rules our country because he was born with a particular last name. The Ministry of Trade will not cause anymore corruption then this particular fact.

 

[DensleyBlair]

I have grown up in Flandern. I know the Flemish bureaucracy and what kind of people who run it, they are all either Walloons or nobles who has become Francophone. The Dutch tried to change it, but that was just before the revolution, so they never got anywhere with that. My father was one of those nobles. He never spoke Dutch in public, because he thought that would belittle our family.

Mijnheer, leaving Dutch to Vlaanderen is not going to make it seem any more prestigious. I too grew up in the area. I come from a Dutch family, yet I do not feel that we must so strictly govern where Dutch may be spoken in the bureaucracy. Flemings must not be afraid to go into a council building in Beveren and speak Flemish.

With your proposal, I fear that Flemings are restricted to Flanders. What if a Fleming wished to do business in Liège? Would they then be left alienated because they could not speak French? With my bill, the bureaucrats would be able to converse with and assist them.

Let us restore prestige to the Dutch language in the eyes of Belgians by having it spoken by great politicians, judges and generals. Let us not simply keep it in the west.

In any case, I have amended my act:

The Bilingualism Act​

1. All government officials (defined as those employed by the executive or legislative branch) shall be required to speak both French and Flemish Dutch.
2. All members of the judiciary shall also be required to speak both languages.
3. All members of the Officer Corps in the military shall be required to speak both languages.
   
   • All non-officer members of the military shall be given language lessons during training should it be required.
4. All public signage (defined as that installed or paid for by the government, or on governmental buildings) shall be bilingual.
5. All schools in Belgium are to teach children both official languages.

Mijnheer Vanderhoof, considering the current debate, I'm not sure of having our currency as the franc. Perhaps something different?

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

 

[Plutonium95]

Should capable administrators really be unable to hold office simply because they only speak one language. It seems unnecessary for a judge in rural Flanders to be able to speak french when it is an issue he would rarely encounter. And if he did encounter such a situation he could get a translator. I believe that we need to look for men of talent and ability as a top priority rather than the ability to speak both languages.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret ((are we still delegates?))

 

[DensleyBlair]

Should capable administrators really be unable to hold office simply because they only speak one language. It seems unnecessary for a judge in rural Flanders to be able to speak french when it is an issue he would rarely encounter. And if he did encounter such a situation he could get a translator. I believe that we need to look for men of talent and ability as a top priority rather than the ability to speak both languages.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret ((are we still delegates?))

The idea, Monsieur, would be to ensure that both languages are known anyway. That way we can just focus on securing the best man for the job. Though – and please correct me if I am wrong – it would stand to reason that the best administrators would be those in national, rather than provincial, positions, and would therefore need to have knowledge of both tongues.

Perhaps if I amended the bill to discount provincial employees?

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

((Considering it's been two years, I wouldn't have thought so. I'm not really sure what we are.))

 

[viola]

I decided to join the Catholic Crown Party, It's the only sensible answer to the absurd "Constitution" that the Jacobins have forced upon us.

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke