Edge of Europe - A Belgian Interactive AAR

[yourworstnightm]

I withdraw the van Cock Government Article, since it's obsolete.

 

[yourworstnightm]

I hope this adresses some concerns people have in regards to impeachment

Article for Impeachment and Justice of Goverment officals Revesion 2

-Any offical of the govenment of Belgium can be impeached, and of any branch
-Impeachment is for if someone has abused the powers of their office
-This requires a majority vote of the lower house
-If an offical is Impeached, the Senate will hold an Conviction trial. A simple majority of the Senate will be Convicted. If an offical is not convicted, they do not have to step down
-The Supreme Court can overturn any impeachment
-If the Prime Minister is impeached, this is not a vote of no confidence. The rulling party will just put in another PM
-For further clarification on who can be impeached, any member of the Parliment or Senate, Prime Minister, any Military Commander
-Any member of the Judicary must be impeached by the Supreme Court. If a member of the Supreme court needs to be impeached, the rest of the supreme court shall have impeachment power
-All members of Government are subject to the laws of Belgium. They are not to be given any favor by the law. The Monarch is also subject to the same laws
-If a member of the Government is arrested, he has to temporarly step down. If he is convicted, he must steep down perminitly. If he is found not guilty, he can resume his post

I object to this. Firstly it assumes there is a ruling party, when the PM could just as well be leading a coalition government with several parties. Also I'm of the opinion that simple majorities in questions such as this will not do. If a political alliance fall apart this could be used to wrongfully impeach political enemies. I'm of the opinion that it should take a qualified majority of 2/3 in both Houses for impeachment.

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

I object to this. Firstly it assumes there is a ruling party, when the PM could just as well be leading a coalition government with several parties. Also I'm of the opinion that simple majorities in questions such as this will not do. If a political alliance fall apart this could be used to wrongfully impeach political enemies. I'm of the opinion that it should take a qualified majority of 2/3 in both Houses for impeachment.

Lord van Cock raises an interesting point. What happens if the parties are unable to come to agreement and form a coalition? I probably missed the section where we decided on the protocol of it but do we attempt to have a minority government or does it force parliament to be disbanded for fresh elections?
In the situation that the Lord is concerned about surely the Supreme Court could quickly overturn such a flagrant impeachment?

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

 

[Gen. Marshall]

Now that this Convention is almost over, and the finishing proposals are submitted, I have classified the clerk's Master List into five categories. Note the size of the fifth category - Obsolete Articles. Most of these are proposals from the "Government" category, which have been rendered obsolete by the Van Brabant Structure of Government Article, the De Merode Executive Proposal and the Loewen Parliament Proposal.

Articles submitted and revised after the publication of the latest Master List are included as well.


Government (5)

Spoiler

[post=15768894]Van Brabant Constitutional Amendment Article, as Revised[/post], providing for constitutional amendment by a 2/3 majority and dismissing the government and calling upon the army to uphold the Constitution if it is violated

[post=15780399]Vanderhoof Abolition of Political Parties[/post], abolishing political parties in Belgium

[post=15784027]Van Brabant Standard[/post], regarding the pay of various government officials

[post=15776486]Van Brabant Martial Law Article[/post], empowering the Monarch to declare martial law for a maximum of one week, which can be extended by a vote of the legislature, and detailing the implications of martial law

[post=15792927]Delcroix Alteration of Article I. Clause II. of the de Merode Executive Proposal V2[/post]

Judiciary (5)

Spoiler

[post=15777404]Galler Legislative Immunity Article[/post], grants legislators immunity from prosecution for statements made within the legislative chambers

[post=15788291]Aerts Judiciary Article V2[/post]

[post=15792884]Aerts Article for Impeachment and Justice of Goverment Officials Revision 2[/post]

[post=15785248]Galler Judiciary Article[/post]

[post=15786727]Vanderhoof Article Regarding Press and Slander[/post]

Civil Rights & Classes (7)

Spoiler

[post=15791434]Wolff Article Defining the Rights and Duties of Belgians Abroad[/post]

[post=15771200]Merode Article on the Role of the Church[/post], establishing the catholic church as the religion of Belgium, requiring catholicism and an oath of allegiance to the pope from the heads of state and government, and reserving 10% of one house for the clergy

[post=15784877]Van Buskirk's Proposal on the Special Rights of the Church and Clergy[/post]

[post=15786265]Brabant Proposal for the Fair Allotment of Rights to the Clergy, Revision 1[/post]

[post=15770911]Vanderhoof Guarantee of the Rights of the Nobility[/post], guaranteeing certain rights and privileges to the nobility, including the right to have a household guard, duel, appeal to the king, etc.

[post=15786340]Van Den Brucke Social Classes of Belgium[/post]

[post=15786150]Van Den Brucke Belgian Concession of Rights[/post]

Military (5)

Spoiler

[post=15770576]Savarin Armed Forces Proposal, as revised[/post]

[post=15789249]Brabant Belgian Royal Armed Forces Article[/post]

[post=15790357]De Ligne Declaration of War Article V2[/post]

[post=15792209]Peeters' Declaration of War Proposal, third draft[/post]

[post=15793978]Vanderhoof Adoption of the Belgian Foreign Guard[/post]

Wholly obsolete (10)

[post=15770313]Van Steinbeck-Antonov Proposal, as revised[/post], declaring the monarch to be the Emperor of Belgium and incorporating various other provisions

[post=15769359]Lévesque Article concerning the Governance of Belgium[/post], incorporating various provisions regarding the crown and the legislature (Proposed twice)

[post=15772346]Lévesque Article Concerning the Establishment of the Belgian Crown[/post], establishing the King as the Grand Duke of Flanders and Wallonia and granting him certain rights

[post=15773662]The Verxanellmes Statute[/post] establishing a Prime Minister chosen by the King from a senate of 80 and including other provisions related to the executive

[post=15777763]Du Sint-Niklaas Revised Joint Legislative Article[/post], establishing a chamber elected by nationwide ballot and a chamber half appointed by the monarch and half appointed by the PM

[post=15777102]Savarin Proposal for Monarch Selection[/post], proposes a direct ballot and runoff for monarch

[post=15780463]Van Cock Parliament Article, as revised[/post], splitting the lower house between Wallonia and Flanders and a variously appointed/hereditary upper house

[post=15783374]De Velde Legislature Plan, V4[/post], creating a nonpartisan upper house appointed by the King and confirmed by the PM, and a proportionally representative lower house

[post=15782587]Van Steinbeck-Antonov Proposal for the Legislature of Belgium[/post], establishing a bicameral Estates General with lower house elected and upper house hereditary/appointed by the monarch

[post=15769876]The du Sint-Niklaas Senate Proposal[/post], comprehensively providing for the upper house


Withdrawn (4)

Spoiler

[post=15771073]Vanderhoof Procedure on the Election of the Belgian Monarch[/post], providing for the election of a Monarch

[post=15776408]The Vanderhoof Structure of Government Proposal[/post], establishing a tricameral Estates General, monarchy, and court system

[post=15774973]Van Cock Article on Head of State and Head of Government[/post], laying out an alternate scheme for the relationship between the crown and the Prime Minister

[post=15771135]Van Cock Government Article, as revised[/post], providing for a King, Prime Minister, Senate, House of Representatives, and Court, further defining Belgium as a union of Flanders and Wallonia and various other provisions

 

[yourworstnightm]

Lord van Cock raises an interesting point. What happens if the parties are unable to come to agreement and form a coalition? I probably missed the section where we decided on the protocol of it but do we attempt to have a minority government or does it force parliament to be disbanded for fresh elections?
In the situation that the Lord is concerned about surely the Supreme Court could quickly overturn such a flagrant impeachment?

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

Even a minority government need to be approved by the Parliament. If there is no government possible for a sitting Parliament there has to be new elections.

And my point is not that the Supreme Court wouldn't overturn a flagrant impeachment. They shouldn't have to do that though. An impeachment should not be an easy political tool. It should be saved for when a politician has done something so immoral that no one would defend his actions. Thus I can't support it if it doesn't require a qualified majority in both houses.

 

[Harpsichord]

I will only say that I feel it is too early to define how colonies should be run, when we have no idea what our political, economic, or military's situation will be once we finally gain a colony. It is something best left for another time.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

I second this. The role of colonies is something best debated after this constitutional meeting.

 

[Dadarian]

I withdraw the Vanderhoof Structure of Government Proposal and the Vanderhoof Procedure on the Election of the Belgian Monarch.

I would like to present the following:

Vanderhoof Adoption of the Belgian Foreign Guard
I. The main element dedicated to securing, defending and expanding any future colonial or overseas territory be the Belgian Foreign Guard (hereafter BFG)
II. The BFG is open to any and all men who wish to serve that meet the physical requirements
III. The BFG is blind to the following in its members: class, nationality, criminal record
IV. The BFG shall be commanded by a member of the regular army
V. All members must be able to speak French, if not they will be taught French
VI. If a member of the BFG is shot or otherwise honourably wounded in battle, they are guaranteed Belgian citizenship if they so choose

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

Mister Vanderhoof, you wish to copy King Louis's unproven concept of having a force made of the dregs of other societies? To be used in the overseas possessions that we do not have yet? And to include it in our national constitution? You are certainly a bold fellow who livens up this Convention.
My only critical objection is that of mandating French as the language of the force. Surely they should use both languages of our fair nation.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

 

[Harpsichord]

I withdraw the Vanderhoof Structure of Government Proposal and the Vanderhoof Procedure on the Election of the Belgian Monarch.

I would like to present the following:

While I am unsure that this is appropriate as a constitutional article, I am in favour of such a proposal generally. My sole caveat is mandating the soldiers be taught only French, when we are a bilingual nation.

 

[Dadarian]

Mister Vanderhoof, you wish to copy King Louis's unproven concept of having a force made of the dregs of other societies? To be used in the overseas possessions that we do not have yet? And to include it in our national constitution? You are certainly a bold fellow who livens up this Convention.
My only critical objection is that of mandating French as the language of the force. Surely they should use both languages of our fair nation.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

To have both languages is unwieldy, confusing and overbearing. While this is fine for government, the military needs to be both efficent and effective. We do not want to end up like the Danubians do we?

 

[yourworstnightm]

I withdraw the van Cock Article on Head of State and Head of Government due to it being obsolete.

 

[Gen. Marshall]

I withdraw the van Cock Article on Head of State and Head of Government due to it being obsolete.

Would you consider withdrawing the Parliament Article and the Government Article as well? They have also been rendered obsolete by other proposals, if I am not mistaken.

I think Mr. Vanderhoof's proposal to form a Foreign Guard is a good idea indeed, and I see no problem with French being its primary language. In fact, we may want to determine a common language for our Armed Forces in general, or split it into Flemish and Walloon (and if applicable, German) regiments. I do, however, think that this should be introduced as common legislation, rather than a part of our Constitution.

- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp

 

[yourworstnightm]

Would you consider withdrawing the Parliament Article and the Government Article as well? They have also been rendered obsolete by other proposals, if I am not mistaken.

I think Mr. Vanderhoof's proposal to form a Foreign Guard is a good idea indeed, and I see no problem with French being its primary language. In fact, we may want to determine a common language for our Armed Forces in general, or split it into Flemish and Walloon (and if applicable, German) regiments. I do, however, think that this should be introduced as common legislation, rather than a part of our Constitution.

- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp

I have already withdrawn the Government article a while ago, and I'm considering withdrawing the Parliament Article

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

I think Mr. Vanderhoof's proposal to form a Foreign Guard is a good idea indeed, and I see no problem with French being its primary language. In fact, we may want to determine a common language for our Armed Forces in general, or split it into Flemish and Walloon (and if applicable, German) regiments. I do, however, think that this should be introduced as common legislation, rather than a part of our Constitution.
- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp

Regarding the Armed Forces in general, perhaps it should be mandated at some point that our officers be proficient in all languages of the nation. This way we can build regiments out of speakers of a common tongue but have their commanders able to interact and work with each other regardless of where they originally come from. Again though, this kind of matter is probably best left outside the Constitution.

Mister Vanderhoof, the proposal of bilingualness for the enlisted men would apply only to Foreign Guardsmen and I expect that they will only need to learn the basics at first like point, shoot, and charge.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

 

[ThunderHawk3]

The Master List​

((Here's the latest copy of the Master List, not including Day 7 proposals. I'll show you a sample ballot for the end of the convention soon.))

Spoiler

[post=15768894]Van Brabant Constitutional Amendment Article, as Revised[/post], providing for constitutional amendment by a 2/3 majority and dismissing the government and calling upon the army to uphold the Constitution if it is violated

[post=15770313]Van Steinbeck-Antonov Proposal, as revised[/post], declaring the monarch to be the Emperor of Belgium and incorporating various other provisions

[post=15769359]Lévesque Article concerning the Governance of Belgium[/post], incorporating various provisions regarding the crown and the legislature

[post=15771200]Merode Article on the Role of the Church[/post], establishing the catholic church as the religion of Belgium, requiring catholicism and an oath of allegiance to the pope from the heads of state and government, and reserving 10% of one house for the clergy

[post=15770911]Vanderhoof Guarantee of the Rights of the Nobility[/post], guaranteeing certain rights and privileges to the nobility, including the right to have a household guard, duel, appeal to the king, etc.

[post=15772085]Lévesque Article Concerning the Governance of Belgium[/post], establishing the position and powers of the King, the legislature, and local Flemish and Wallonian legislatures

[post=15772346]Lévesque Article Concerning the Establishment of the Belgian Crown[/post], establishing the King as the Grand Duke of Flanders and Wallonia and granting him certain rights

[post=15776486]Van Brabant Martial Law Article[/post], empowering the Monarch to declare martial law for a maximum of one week, which can be extended by a vote of the legislature, and detailing the implications of martial law

[post=15777102]Savarin Proposal for Monarch Selection[/post], proposes a direct ballot and runoff for monarch

[post=15777404]Galler Legislative Immunity Article[/post], grants legislators immunity from prosecution for statements made within the legislative chambers

[post=15782587]Van Steinbeck-Antonov Proposal for the Legislature of Belgium[/post], establishing a bicameral Estates General with lower house elected and upper house hereditary/appointed by the monarch

[post=15784027]Van Brabant Standard[/post], regarding the pay of various government officials

[post=15784877]Van Buskirk's Proposal on the Special Rights of the Church and Clergy[/post], exempting the clergy from taxes, military service, secular trial

[post=15781403]Galler Legislative Language Article[/post], providing that laws must be translated into both Dutch and French and granting legislators the right to debate in either language.

[post=15786265]Brabant Proposal for the Fair Allotment of Rights to the Clergy, Revision 1[/post], exempting all clergymen from service, exempting donations to the catholic church from taxation and giving the Pope power of judgment over clergymen

[post=15786340]Van Den Brucke Social Classes of Belgium[/post], defining four social classes of The Clergy, the Nobility, the Great Bourgeoisie and the Commoners - and calling for separate laws for each class

[post=15786150]Van Den Brucke Belgian Concession of Rights[/post], establishing certain rights

[post=15786727]Vanderhoof Article Regarding Press and Slander[/post], decriminalizing slander and stopping the press from being sued for libel/slander

[post=15770576]Savarin Armed Forces Proposal, as revised[/post], establishing a Supreme Council of the Armed Forces and for other purposes

[post=15789249]Brabant Belgian Royal Armed Forces Article[/post], empowering a Chief of Staff and the Minister of War and defining their roles

[post=15790357]De Ligne Declaration of War Article V2[/post], empowering the King or PM (with King's approval) to request that the legislature declare war

[post=15792209]Peeters' Declaration of War Proposal, fourth draft[/post], vests the monarch alone with the power to declare war with the approval of the legislature

[post=15791434]Wolff Article Defining the Rights and Duties of Belgians Abroad[/post], including various provisions relating to Belgians abroad

 

[ThunderHawk3]

New tally. Note that voting on the Belgian Citizenship Provision and Joint of Bill Rights is about to close.

[post=15786315]Belgian Citizenship Provision V3[/post] (Ends 9:00 AM PST 7/16)
Yes: 20
No: 1
Abstain: 0

[post=15786225]Joint Bill of Rights V4[/post] (Ends 9:00 AM PST 7/16)
Yes: 16
No: 5
Abstain: 0

[post=15785067]De Velde Provision for the Incapability of the Monarch[/post] (Ends 11:30 AM PST 7/16)
Yes: 16
No: 4
Abstain: 3

[post=15788523]De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the Judiciary[/post] (Ends 8:00 PM PST 7/16)
Yes: 12
No: 0
Abstain: 1

Here are the day 7 proposals. In about 11 hours, the convention will end. All these proposals listed below will be voted on at the end of the convention as per convention rules.

Spoiler

[post=15792884]Aerts Article for Impeachment and Justice of Government officials Revision 2[/post] - Providing for the impeachment of any government official and for other purposes.

[post=15792927]Delcroix Alteration of Article I. Clause II. of the de Merode Executive Proposal[/post] - Explaining for what reasons the ascension of the King of Belgium can be blocked by the legislature

[post=15793978]Vanderhoof Adoption of the Belgian Foreign Guard[/post] - Creating the Belgian Foreign Guard with French as its principle language and extending Belgian citizenship to those honorably wounded in service of Belgium

 

[Otto of england]

Seeing as the loewen legislature proposal has passed I withdraw the de Velde legislature plan v4.

((Has there been a military proposal yet?))

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

 

[DensleyBlair]

I hereby withdraw the Joint Legislative Article, though I must express my disappointment at its never being even discussed. I also withdraw the Senate Article, though again refute its complete obsoleteness. I therefore present one final article:

Privileges of Membership Article​

1. Members of Parliament (both houses) shall be entitled to the reimbursement of any expenses occasioned by parliamentary duties.
2. Members shall be exempt from prosecution for acts of libel and slander carried out during parliamentary debates and discussions, as well as in any official documents.
3. This immunity shall extend to acts committed during travel to and from parliamentary duties.

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

 

[ThunderHawk3]

Sample Ballot​

((Here's a sample ballot, which demonstrates how I'd organize the final vote - some ideas taken from Gen Marshall.))

Voting is NOT open yet.



Sample Longform Ballot

Spoiler

The King

Of the following individuals, who are your first, second, and third choices for King of the Belgians?

((Color indicates my best guess at political philosophy, yellow being liberal, light blue being conservative, and violet being reactionary. If you happen to be colorblind and unable to distinguish between them, inquire with me.))

Prince Leopold Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Saxony
Prince Louis d'Orléans, Duke of Nemours
Auguste de Beauharnais, Duke of Leuchtenberg
Archduke Charles von Habsburg-Lorraine, Duke of Teschen
Grand Duke Michael Pavlovich, Duke of Russia
Camillo Benso, Count of Cavour
A Native Belgian Candidate, of aristocratic descent
(In the event a native Belgian is preferred over a foreign King, a list of the suitable candidates will be drawn up, and voted upon in a similar manner as to this)

1st Choice: Leopold/Louis/Auguste/Charles/Michael/Camillo/Native Belgian/Abstain
2nd Choice: Leopold/Louis/Auguste/Charles/Michael/Camillo/Native Belgian/Abstain
3rd Choice: Leopold/Louis/Auguste/Charles/Michael/Camillo/Native Belgian/Abstain

Vote Yes, No, or Abstain on all of the following:

General Government

[post=15768894]Van Brabant Constitutional Amendment Article, as Revised[/post]:

Executive

[post=15770313]Van Steinbeck-Antonov Proposal, as revised[/post]*:
[post=15771200]Merode Article on the Role of the Church[/post]*:
[post=15772085]Lévesque Article Concerning the Governance of Belgium[/post]*:
[post=15772346]Lévesque Article Concerning the Establishment of the Belgian Crown[/post]*:

Legislature

[post=15777404]Galler Legislative Immunity Article[/post]:
[post=15782587]Van Steinbeck-Antonov Proposal for the Legislature of Belgium[/post]*:

Judiciary



Rights and Classes

[post=15770911]Vanderhoof Guarantee of the Rights of the Nobility[/post]:
[post=15784877]Van Buskirk's Proposal on the Special Rights of the Church and Clergy[/post]:
[post=15786265]Brabant Proposal for the Fair Allotment of Rights to the Clergy, Revision 1[/post]:
[post=15786340]Van Den Brucke Social Classes of Belgium[/post]:
[post=15786150]Van Den Brucke Belgian Concession of Rights[/post]:
[post=15786727]Vanderhoof Article Regarding Press and Slander[/post]:

Military

[post=15776486]Van Brabant Martial Law Article[/post]:
[post=15796121]Savarin Armed Forces Proposal, V3[/post]:
[post=15789249]Brabant Belgian Royal Armed Forces Article[/post]:
[post=15790357]De Ligne Declaration of War Article V2[/post]:
[post=15792209]Peeters' Declaration of War Proposal, third draft[/post]:

Other

[post=15784027]Van Brabant Standard[/post]:
[post=15791434]Wolff Article Defining the Rights and Duties of Belgians Abroad[/post]:
[post=15781403]Galler Legislative Language Article[/post]:

* - Item contradicts an existing piece of the Constitution and will have to overrule it to pass.

Sample Shortform Ballot

Spoiler

King of the Belgians:

1st Choice: Leopold/Louis/Auguste/Charles/Michael/Camillo/Native Belgian/Abstain
2nd Choice: Leopold/Louis/Auguste/Charles/Michael/Camillo/Native Belgian/Abstain
3rd Choice: Leopold/Louis/Auguste/Charles/Michael/Camillo/Native Belgian/Abstain


I vote for all of the proposals in the following categories as indicated:

General Government:
Executive:
Legislature:
Judiciary:
Rights and Classes:
Military:
Other:

 

[ThunderHawk3]

Voting on the Belgian Citizenship Provision and Joint Bill of Rights has closed. They have passed and join the Loewen Parliament Proposal, the Language Article, Brabant Structure of Government Article, and Merode Executive Proposal as part of the Constitution. (To say nothing of the Delcroix List of Candidates and the Daret Ranked Voting Proposal.)