Edge of Europe - A Belgian Interactive AAR

[Dadarian]

It is a very good idea, Monsieur van Brabant. We are are Christian state, and our mission is to spread the holy faith. And we should also think about acquiring certain overseas territories. But our state faith is Roman Catholicism, and I do not think that we should indicate advocacy of, say, Protestantism as our goal. We will be tolerant to our Protestant citizens, we will respect their faith, but they are indeed a minority, and their religion is not a part of our ideology, while Roman Catholicism should be. So, "Сhristianity of any denomination" should be replaced with "Roman Catholicism", I think.

- Charles, Prince de Ligne

Oh come now, the role of every Belgian citizen overseas should be focused on bringing trade, money and treasures back to the Motherland. The spreading of Christianity should be used to this end ... And to save the souls of the unwashed hordes of course.

 

[Fingon888]

Having a constitutional Article stating that the government should spread "Christianity (Of any denomination)" is hardly a problem in my eyes, as surely our Catholic majority will spread out as such to any colonies, under the guidance of a Catholic majority government. My issue is really with including Section V, this encouragement for people to come to the colonies, in the Constitution. Surely, it would be better if we would determine the need for such encouragement when it is relevant, and pass a regular law to lessen the colonists' burden?

- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp

I agree with Monsieur van Brabant. This article, while commendable, is hardly necessary to be in this constitution. Many of us will be in government, so we can work for this kind of legislation then.

 

[Plutonium95]

I also agree with Monsieurs van Brabant and Damseaux, such an article would certainly work better as a law that can be passed at the time of forming a colony, when we can best determine our situation.

I would be willing to support either Peeters' or van Brabant's proposal, though I am not sure how I feel about the separation PM and Monarch when declaring war in van Brabant's proposal.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[Gen. Marshall]

Mr. Peeters' proposal would be acceptable... perhaps we could compromise on this?

((Coldfront?))

I withdraw my Declaration of War Article.

- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp

 

[Harpsichord]

Based on discussion with my fellow Liberals, I hereby present a fourth draft of my proposal.

The Peeters' Declaration of War Proposal, fourth draft

I. The Monarch alone is invested with the power to declare war.
I.a. The Monarch may delegate this power to the Prime Minister, as they see fit. The Prime Minister will be bound by this article as the Monarch would.

II. The Monarch must directly request consent of both the Upper and Lower Houses (hereafter referred to as the legislature) prior to any declaration of war.
II.a. The Prime Minister must be informed of this request prior to it being presented to the legislature, and vice versa if the Prime Minister has been delegated the power.
II.b. Approval is considered to be granted if supported by a simple majority (50%+1) in both Houses.

III. Upon receiving the consent of the legislature, the declaration of war must be signed within 30 days.

IV. Both the Monarch and the Prime Minister must signed the declaration of war, indicating their joint consent.

V. If the legislature does not give consent, or either the PM or Monarch do not sign, any declaration of war is to be considered invalid.

VI. Due to circumstance and in emergencies, the Monarch and/or the Prime Minister may be unable to sign a necessary declaration of war. The following sub clauses account for such dire circumstances.
VI.a. If the Monarch is unable to sign (either due to mental or physical impediment), their Regent is entitled to sign on their behalf. If there is no Regent, the first in line for the throne shall sign, and so on.
VI.b. If the Prime Minister is unable to sign (either due to mental or physical impediment), then the next most senior member of Cabinet shall sign, and so on. For this purpose, the seniority of Cabinet (after the Prime Minister) is thus: Minister of Foreign Affairs, Minister of Finance, Minister of the Interior, Minister of War, Minister of Justice.

VII. If a foreign nation declares war upon our nation, Belgium shall automatically be considered at war with said nation.

VIII. Both houses of the legislature have the right to hold a symbolic, non-binding vote on a declaration of war, prior to any request by the Monarch, to indicate support (or lack thereof).

VIIII. All requests and votes under this Article are made in secret, and leaking their existence to a third party shall be considered treason.

 

[Plutonium95]

Based on discussion with my fellow Liberals, I hereby present a fourth draft of my proposal.

This proposal has my support.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[Noco19]

Oh come now, the role of every Belgian citizen overseas should be focused on bringing trade, money and treasures back to the Motherland. The spreading of Christianity should be used to this end ... And to save the souls of the unwashed hordes of course.

We cannot build Belgian society on the basis of greed and vice. The thought of using religion to further monetary gain is disgusting.

- Bishop van Buskirk

 

[Plutonium95]

We cannot build Belgian society on the basis of greed and vice. The thought of using religion to further monetary gain is disgusting.

- Bishop van Buskirk

Yes, could you imagine if the Catholic Church had ever used religion for monetary gains, like if they made people pay to be absolved of their sins or burn in eternal hell or something. It is disgusting just to think about it.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

(p))

 

[Thoctar]

For the purposes of tolerance any and all missionaries should be accorded the same status, even if in the end Catholicism may end up being promoted more due to the nature of its status within Belgium. In light of the opposition, I shall remove section V and we shall debate this once the regular legislative session begins.

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

Mister Wolff, I have a suggestion regarding your proposed article. I feel that Section IV should mandate what a "minimum level of security" is. What would stop an unscrupulous military or bureaucracy from deciding that an old man with a musket is security enough for a colony of settlers?

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

 

[Harpsichord]

This proposal has my support.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

I thankyou sir.

 

[Thoctar]

Mister Wolff, I have a suggestion regarding your proposed article. I feel that Section IV should mandate what a "minimum level of security" is. What would stop an unscrupulous military or bureaucracy from deciding that an old man with a musket is security enough for a colony of settlers?

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

How would you propose we define it Sir Willems-Hopegood?

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

How would you propose we define it Sir Willems-Hopegood?

I would leave the specifics to men more military minded than myself but perhaps some sort of quota of enlisted men and artillery pieces for a certain amount of Belgian citizens in the colony. For example, and I apologise if my guesses are wildly inaccurate, four men and one gun for every hundred citizens.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

 

[ThunderHawk3]

New tally. Note that voting on the Loewen Parliament Proposal is about to close.

[post=15784528]Loewen Parliament Proposal - Ninth Revision[/post] (Ends 8:00 PM PST 7/15)
Yes: 14
No: 10
Abstain: 0

[post=15786315]Belgian Citizenship Provision V3[/post] (Ends 9:00 AM PST 7/16)
Yes: 20
No: 1
Abstain: 0

[post=15786225]Joint Bill of Rights V4[/post] (Ends 9:00 AM PST 7/16)
Yes: 16
No: 5
Abstain: 0

[post=15785067]De Velde Provision for the Incapability of the Monarch[/post] (Ends 11:30 PM PST 7/16)
Yes: 16
No: 4
Abstain: 3

[post=15788523]De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the Judiciary[/post]
Yes: 12
No: 0
Abstain: 1

Here are the day 6 proposals. In about 1 hour, the day will end and the topic will change. All these proposals listed below will be voted on at the end of the convention as per convention rules.

Spoiler

[post=15770576]Savarin Armed Forces Proposal, as revised[/post]

[post=15789249]Brabant Belgian Royal Armed Forces Article[/post]

[post=15790357]De Ligne Declaration of War Article V2[/post]

[post=15792209]Peeters' Declaration of War Proposal, third draft[/post]

[post=15791434]Wolff Article Defining the Rights and Duties of Belgians Abroad[/post]

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

I would leave the specifics to men more military minded than myself but perhaps some sort of quota of enlisted men and artillery pieces for a certain amount of Belgian citizens in the colony. For example, and I apologise if my guesses are wildly inaccurate, four men and one gun for every hundred citizens.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

I forgot that there should be a reasonable upper limit to this quota so that we don't end up in a situation where massive emigration to a colony forces us to move tens of thousands of men there unnecessarily.
An alternative could be mandating a minimum garrison size per province or region, say a brigade of troops for every colonial province.
I am not too proud to admit that the precise implementation of a concept is one of my weaker points. This is why every good man has advisers of some sort.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

 

[atomicsoda]

I forgot that there should be a reasonable upper limit to this quota so that we don't end up in a situation where massive emigration to a colony forces us to move tens of thousands of men there unnecessarily.
An alternative could be mandating a minimum garrison size per province or region, say a brigade of troops for every colonial province.
I am not too proud to admit that the precise implementation of a concept is one of my weaker points. This is why every good man has advisers of some sort.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

This is madness. We have no colonies and you are trying to constitutionalize what size garrison needs to be deployed in a non existent colony. Lets lets the government in future deal with these issues as they arise.

 

[ThunderHawk3]

Voting on the Loewen Parliament Proposal - Ninth Revision has closed. It has passed and joins the Language Article, Brabant Structure of Government Article, and Merode Executive Proposal as part of the Constitution.

 

[ThunderHawk3]

Day 7 at the convention has now begun.​

The topic for the day is: Everything. All proposals are topical today.

Items may not be called to a vote today as they will overlap with the main ballot. They will have to wait for the vote at the end of the convention.

 

[ThunderHawk3]

The Master List​

((There's still quite a lot of stuff that appears obsolete on the master list. Take a minute to remove your obsolete proposals. Remember, you guys all have to vote on every single last one of these and I have to tally them - be considerate of others!))

Spoiler

[post=15768894]Van Brabant Constitutional Amendment Article, as Revised[/post], providing for constitutional amendment by a 2/3 majority and dismissing the government and calling upon the army to uphold the Constitution if it is violated

[post=15771135]Van Cock Government Article, as revised[/post], providing for a King, Prime Minister, Senate, House of Representatives, and Court, further defining Belgium as a union of Flanders and Wallonia and various other provisions

[post=15770313]Van Steinbeck-Antonov Proposal, as revised[/post], declaring the monarch to be the Emperor of Belgium and incorporating various other provisions

[post=15769359]Lévesque Article concerning the Governance of Belgium[/post], incorporating various provisions regarding the crown and the legislature

[post=15769876]The du Sint-Niklaas Senate Proposal[/post], comprehensively providing for the upper house

[post=15771200]Merode Article on the Role of the Church[/post], establishing the catholic church as the religion of Belgium, requiring catholicism and an oath of allegiance to the pope from the heads of state and government, and reserving 10% of one house for the clergy

[post=15770911]Vanderhoof Guarantee of the Rights of the Nobility[/post], guaranteeing certain rights and privileges to the nobility, including the right to have a household guard, duel, appeal to the king, etc.

[post=15771073]Vanderhoof Procedure on the Election of the Belgian Monarch[/post], providing for the election of a Monarch

[post=15772085]Lévesque Article Concerning the Governance of Belgium[/post], establishing the position and powers of the King, the legislature, and local Flemish and Wallonian legislatures

[post=15772346]Lévesque Article Concerning the Establishment of the Belgian Crown[/post], establishing the King as the Grand Duke of Flanders and Wallonia and granting him certain rights

[post=15773662]The Verxanellmes Statute[/post] establishing a Prime Minister chosen by the King from a senate of 80 and including other provisions related to the executive

[post=15774973]Van Cock Article on Head of State and Head of Government[/post], laying out an alternate scheme for the relationship between the crown and the Prime Minister

[post=15776408]The Vanderhoof Structure of Government Proposal[/post], establishing a tricameral Estates General, monarchy, and court system

[post=15776486]Van Brabant Martial Law Article[/post], empowering the Monarch to declare martial law for a maximum of one week, which can be extended by a vote of the legislature, and detailing the implications of martial law

[post=15777102]Savarin Proposal for Monarch Selection[/post], proposes a direct ballot and runoff for monarch

[post=15777404]Galler Legislative Immunity Article[/post], grants legislators immunity from prosecution for statements made within the legislative chambers

[post=15777763]Du Sint-Niklaas Revised Joint Legislative Article[/post], establishing a chamber elected by nationwide ballot and a chamber half appointed by the monarch and half appointed by the PM

[post=15780463]Van Cock Parliament Article, as revised[/post], splitting the lower house between Wallonia and Flanders and a variously appointed/hereditary upper house

[post=15783374]De Velde Legislature Plan, V4[/post], creating a nonpartisan upper house appointed by the King and confirmed by the PM, and a proportionally representative lower house

[post=15780399]Vanderhoof Abolition of Political Parties[/post], abolishing political parties in Belgium

[post=15782587]Van Steinbeck-Antonov Proposal for the Legislature of Belgium[/post], establishing a bicameral Estates General with lower house elected and upper house hereditary/appointed by the monarch

[post=15784027]Van Brabant Standard[/post], regarding the pay of various government officials

[post=15784877]Van Buskirk's Proposal on the Special Rights of the Church and Clergy[/post]

[post=15788291]Aerts Judiciary Article V2[/post]

[post=15784972]Aerts Article for Impeachment and Justice of Goverment Officials Revision 1[/post]

[post=15785248]Galler Judiciary Article[/post]

[post=15786265]Brabant Proposal for the Fair Allotment of Rights to the Clergy, Revision 1[/post]

[post=15786340]Van Den Brucke Social Classes of Belgium[/post]

[post=15786150]Van Den Brucke Belgian Concession of Rights[/post]

[post=15786727]Vanderhoof Article Regarding Press and Slander[/post]

[post=15770576]Savarin Armed Forces Proposal, as revised[/post]

[post=15789249]Brabant Belgian Royal Armed Forces Article[/post]

[post=15790357]De Ligne Declaration of War Article V2[/post]

[post=15792209]Peeters' Declaration of War Proposal, third draft[/post]

[post=15791434]Wolff Article Defining the Rights and Duties of Belgians Abroad[/post]

 

[jeeshadow]

I withdraw Aerts Article on the Crown Police of Belgium

---

I would also like to put this back up for debate:

Article for Impeachment and Justice of Goverment officals Revesion 1
-Any offical of the govenment of Belgium can be impeached, and of any branch
-This requires a majority vote of the lower house
-If the Prime Minister is impeached, this is not a vote of no confidence. The rulling party will just put in another PM
-For further clarification on who can be impeached, any member of the Parliment or Senate, Monarch, Prime Minister, any Military Commander, Prime Minister
-Any member of the Judicary must be impeached by the Supreme Court. If a member of the Supreme court needs to be impeached, the rest of the supreme court shall have impeachment power
-All members of Government are subject to the laws of Belgium. They are not to be given any favor by the law. The Monarch is also subject to the same laws
-If a member of the Government is arrested, he has to temporarly step down. If he is convicted, he must steep down perminitly. If he is found not guilty, he can resume his post