Edge of Europe - A Belgian Interactive AAR

[Tapscott]

Please don't launch attacks on other players at the convention >.>

((That part comes later.))

And with that I bid you good night. I leave Belgium in your hands.

((Heh, since I am a peaceful Bishop, I shall preach not hire goons ))

 

[DensleyBlair]

Good morning, Messieurs.

Here is my vote for the outstanding article:

De Graaf Judiciary Proposal: Aye

This is a good, comprehensive article, and one that I can only support.

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas,MWO

 

[yourworstnightm]

De Veldte's Provision: Nay We give an Upper House most probably consisting of enemies of the king (considering which directions things are going) too much influence
De Graaf's Judiciary Propoasal: Aye

 

[Gen. Marshall]

De Graaf Judiciary Proposal: Aye

I feel Mr. Savarin's proposal for the organization of our military is overly complicated, and the De Merode Executive Proposal has made it partially obsolete. Therefore, I propose the following Article to the Convention. Bear in mind that this is a Constitutional Article, and therefore its task is not to determine exactly how our Army should function - only how it should cooperate with and be appointed by the legislature and executives.

Belgian Royal Armed Forces Article
I. The Monarch is the Supreme Commander of the Belgian Royal Armed Forces.
a. The Monarch has complete authority regarding the disposition of the Belgian Royal Armed Forces and their deployment within Belgium. Furthermore, the King has complete authority regarding the disposition and deployment of the army and the navy in foreign lands, contingent upon legislative authorization.
b. The Monarch may choose to delegate any of his tasks as Supreme Commander to the Chief of Staff.
c. The Monarch may not be fired from his military position, unless he abdicates.

II. The Chief of Staff is the Executive Commander of the Belgian Royal Armed Forces.
a. The Chief of Staff is under the direct command of the Monarch.
b. The Chief of Staff must follow and try to achieve any targets outlined by the Minister of War.
c. The Chief of Staff appoints the Chiefs of the military branches in consent with the Monarch.
d. The Chief of Staff may be fired by the Minister of War, if his dismissal is agreed upon by a simple majority in the Lower House.

III. The Minister of War is the political leader of the Belgian Royal Armed Forces.
a. The Minister of War may not hold any military position or rank.
b. The Minister of War must execute any legislation passed by the Lower and Upper Houses.
c. The Minister of War may outline goals for the Chief of Staff on strategical and organizational levels.

In addition to that, I have taken a look at Baron Van Cock's article regarding the declaration of war. It is wholly unacceptable, I am afraid, as it puts the right to initiate a declaration of war solely in the hands of the Monarch, with the Lower House only able to approve and the PM not able to do anything whatsoever but resign. I propose to turn things around:

Declaration of War Article
I. The Prime Minister may request the legislature for approval of a declaration of war.
a. Such a request is made in secret, as is the voting on it, and leaking the existence of such a request to a third party is a crime.
II. The Lower House must approve of the declaration of war with a simple majority.
III. The Upper House must approve of the declaration of war with a simple majority.
IV. The Monarch must approve of the declaration of war.
V. When Sections I. through IV. are fulfilled, the Monarch must declare war on the specified state within 30 days of his final approval.

- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp

 

[yourworstnightm]

We have already established that the Monarch lead foreign policy. That's why I changed the the article to reflect that, compared to my original plan that had the Prime Minister in a more visible position. And in my proposal there wouldn't be a war if the Lower House don't approve it, so actually the Lower House would have been the most powerful factor in any declaration of war. Also I can't see any reason why the Upper House should be involved at all. Honorable Gentlemen have better things to do than deciding whether or not to kill other people. Those decisions are better left to people of lower qualities.

 

[Gen. Marshall]

Baron, in accordance with the de Merode Executive Proposal, which is a compromise between the liberal and conservative groups, the King is "the primary representative of the Belgian people in all foreign affairs". The Parliament should not be able to declare war without the consent of the Head of State.

- Charles, Prince de Ligne

Baron Van Cock, not even the Prince de Ligne suggested that the Head of State should be able to declare war with the mere consent of Parliament. The King is "the primary representative of the Belgian people in all foreign affairs", key word "representative". A representative's task is to represent something, in this case the foreign policy made by the Cabinet. Now, I agree with the Prince de Ligne that the King should have influence, and as such my proposal will not only call for kingly consent, but as Supreme Commander also allows him to deliver the final declaration of war.

- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp

 

[Marschalk]

Baron Van Cock, not even the Prince de Ligne suggested that the Head of State should be able to declare war with the mere consent of Parliament. The King is "the primary representative of the Belgian people in all foreign affairs", key word "representative". A representative's task is to represent something, in this case the foreign policy made by the Cabinet. Now, I agree with the Prince de Ligne that the King should have influence, and as such my proposal will not only call for kingly consent, but as Supreme Commander also allows him to deliver the final declaration of war.

- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp

Sir, it is clear, that "the primary representative of the Belgian people in all foreign affairs" means "the head of the foreign policy", not a lowly agent serving the Cabinet and doing what it will ask. This task is unworthy of the monarch. I must remind you, that the liberals have said, that giving the King vast powers in the foreign policy area, they made a great compromise. It is a major part of the Royal Prerogative. I will offer my own version of the article.

Declaration of War Article
I. The King may directly request the legislature for approval of a declaration of war. The Prime Minister should be informed beforehand about this request.
II. The Lower House must approve of the declaration of war with a simple majority.
III. The Upper House must approve of the declaration of war with a simple majority.
IV. When the Upperhouse approves of the declaration of war, the King declares the war within 40 days of approval.
V. The Prime Minister may ask the King for approval of a declaration of war.
VI. The King must approve of a declaration of a war. or refuse his consent.
VI. If the King gives his consent, the Prime Minister may request the legislature for approval of a declaration of war.
VI. The legislature approves of the declaration of war, and the war is declared in accordance with Clauses II-IV of this Article.
VI. 1/2 of the Legislature members may directly ask the King for approval of a declaration of war in a special petion. The Prime Minister should be informed beforehand about this request.
VII. If the King gives his consent, the legislature approves of the declaration of war, and the war is declared in accordance with Clauses II-IV of this Article.
VIII. All requests and votes under this Article are made in secret, and leaking their existence to a third party is a crime.

Charles, Prince de Ligne

 

[Harpsichord]

((The whole last page had me in stiches. Not only the excellent updates, but also the ooc back and forth over the backroom dealing with Vanderhoof.))

De Velde's Provision: Abstain
De Graaf's Judiciary Propoasal: Aye

 

[Davout]

I vote:

De Veldte Proposal: Aye
De Graaf Judiciary Proposal: Aye

 

[G.K.]

Belgian Citizenship Provision: Yes
Joint Bill of Rights V4: Yes
De Velde Provision for the Incapability of the Monarch: Yes
De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the Judiciary: Yes

I would like to thank the delegates for support. As for the head of the court, this can be specified in the law regarding the internal orgainzation, since the head of SC should not play a major role nowhere in the constitution.
Also, I would like to remind Mr. Galler and Delcroix that they might be wrong about the laws - no state can exist in such a legal vacuum, so even though there are no Belgian laws at the moment, the courts ((probably)) still use old Dutch laws.
((Otherwise, the disputes at this convention may have been solved by even worse means that just hiring some goons =) ))

 

[Otto of england]

((Why does everyone keep spelling my name wrong? Its de Velde not de Veldte...))

 

[Harpsichord]

((Why does everyone keep spelling my name wrong? Its de Velde not de Veldte...))

((I just copied someone else, I assume that's what everyone is doing.))

 

[yourworstnightm]

I withdraw my Declaration of War article, and support Prince de Ligne's. However I don't think the Upper House rneed to dirty their hands with these kind of questions. Also I'm against the Legislature being able to ask directly for a declaration of war. The Prime Minister or the King should always be the ones taking the initiative.

 

[Harpsichord]

Gentlemen, I present the following:

The Peeters' Declaration of War Proposal, first draft

I. The Monarch alone is invested with the power to declare war.
I.a. The Monarch may delegate this power to the Prime Minister, as they see fit. The Prime Minister will be bound by this article as the Monarch would.

II. The Monarch must directly request consent of the legislative Lower House prior to any declaration of war.
II.a. The Prime Minister must be informed of this request prior to it being presented to the Lower House, and vice versa if the Prime Minister has been delegated the power.
II.b. Approval is considered to be granted if supported by a simple majority in the Lower House.

III. Upon receiving the consent of the Lower House, the declaration of war must be signed within 30 days.

IV. Both the Monarch and the Prime Minister must signed the declaration of war, indicating their joint consent.

V. If the Lower House does not give consent, or either the PM or Monarch do not sign, any declaration of war is to be considered invalid.

VI. All requests and votes under this Article are made in secret, and leaking their existence to a third party shall be considered treason.

I hope this proposal will appeal to both sides of this house, and I am open to suggestions for improvement. I have tried to compromise on the tired "PM or King" debate, firstly by including the right of the Monarch to delegate the power to the PM, and secondly by necessitating the signature of both the PM and the Monarch on any declaration.

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

Would it be possible to have something like:
- Both the Monarch and the PM have the power to declare war.
- Each man requires the simple majority ((50%+1)) support of a house of parliament, either the Upper House for the monarch or the Lower House for the PM.
- Each man has a veto power over each other.
- This veto can be overridden by their respective house by simple majority, so a PM's veto of the monarch's declaration would be cancelled if a simple majority of the lower house agree with the monarch's decision to go to war.

I feel that such a mechanism would give us checks and balances while preserving both the monarch's role as head of foreign policy and the government's role of managing the nation.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

 

[Gen. Marshall]

That is a good idea indeed, Mr. Willems-Hopegood.

Declaration of War Article
Revision 1

A. Through the Prime Minister
I. The Prime Minister may request the legislature for approval of a declaration of war.
a. Such a request is made in secret, as is the voting on it, and leaking the existence of such a request to a third party is considered treason.
II. The Lower House must approve of the declaration of war with a simple majority.
III. The Monarch may request for an additional vote in the Upper House.
a. The Upper House must then also approve of the declaration of war with a simple majority.
IV. When Sections I. through IV. are fulfilled, the Monarch must declare war on the specified state within 30 days of the official approval.

B. Through the Monarch
I. The Monarch may request the legislature for approval of a declaration of war.
a. Such a request is made in secret, as is the voting on it, and leaking the existence of such a request to a third party is considered treason.
II. The Upper House must approve of the declaration of war with a simple majority.
III. The Prime Minister may request for an additional vote in the Lower House.
a. The Lower House must then also approve of the declaration of war with a simple majority.
IV. When Sections I. through IV. are fulfilled, the Monarch must declare war on the specified state within 30 days of the official approval.

 

[Marschalk]

I withdraw my Declaration of War article, and support Prince de Ligne's. However I don't think the Upper House rneed to dirty their hands with these kind of questions. Also I'm against the Legislature being able to ask directly for a declaration of war. The Prime Minister or the King should always be the ones taking the initiative.

I have drafted a new version of the Article. Indeed, now only the King and the PM can request for approval of a declaration of war. However, I think, that the Upperhouse needs to participate. It is a house of legislature, and we should not take its voting rights from it. It is a more professional and less political house, it will consist of professional people, ex-generals, ex-diplomats, administrators. And they should be able to influence the process as well.

De Ligne Declaration of War Article - v2
I. The King may directly request the legislature for approval of a declaration of war. The Prime Minister should be informed beforehand about this request.
II. The Lower House must approve of the declaration of war with a simple majority.
III. The Upper House must approve of the declaration of war with a simple majority.
IV. When the Upperhouse approves of the declaration of war, the King declares the war within 40 days of approval.
V. The Prime Minister may ask the King for approval of a declaration of war.
VI. The King must approve of a declaration of a war. or refuse his consent.
VI. If the King gives his consent, the Prime Minister may request the legislature for approval of a declaration of war.
VI. The legislature approves of the declaration of war, and the war is declared in accordance with Clauses II-IV of this Article.
VII. All requests and votes under this Article are made in secret, and leaking their existence to a third party is an act of treason.

Charles, Prince de Ligne

 

[ThunderHawk3]

You people and your many ballots and proposals. New tally.

[post=15784528]Loewen Parliament Proposal - Ninth Revision[/post] (Ends 8:00 PM PST 7/15)
Yes: 14
No: 10
Abstain: 0

[post=15786315]Belgian Citizenship Provision V3[/post] (Ends 9:00 AM PST 7/16)
Yes: 20
No: 1
Abstain: 0

[post=15786225]Joint Bill of Rights V4[/post] (Ends 9:00 AM PST 7/16)
Yes: 16
No: 5
Abstain: 0

[post=15785067]De Velde Provision for the Incapability of the Monarch[/post] (Ends 11:30 PM PST 7/16)
Yes: 16
No: 4
Abstain: 3

[post=15788523]De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the Judiciary[/post]
Yes: 12
No: 0
Abstain: 1

Here are the day 6 proposals. In about 11 hours, the day will end and the topic will change. All these proposals listed below will be voted on at the end of the convention as per convention rules.

Spoiler

[post=15770576]Savarin Armed Forces Proposal, as revised[/post]

[post=15789249]Brabant Belgian Royal Armed Forces Article[/post]

[post=15790309]Brabant Declaration of War Article - Revision 1[/post]

[post=15790357]De Ligne Declaration of War Article V2[/post]

[post=15790159]Peeters' Declaration of War Proposal, first draft[/post]

 

[Harpsichord]

While I have no strong feelings on the inclusion of the upper house, I shall present a second draft including it. Personally I feel investing the power to declare war in both the Monarch and the Prime Minister to be a confusing approach, and may create conflict between the Monarch and Prime Minister. I also feel the role of Prime Minister already dilutes the separation of powers that should exist within government, and am disinclined to dierctly invest more power into the role.

The Peeters' Declaration of War Proposal, second draft

I. The Monarch alone is invested with the power to declare war.
I.a. The Monarch may delegate this power to the Prime Minister, as they see fit. The Prime Minister will be bound by this article as the Monarch would.

II. The Monarch must directly request consent of both the Upper and Lower Houses (hereafter refered to as the legislature) prior to any declaration of war.
II.a. The Prime Minister must be informed of this request prior to it being presented to the legislature, and vice versa if the Prime Minister has been delegated the power.
II.b. Approval is considered to be granted if supported by a simple majority (50%+1) in both Houses.

III. Upon receiving the consent of the legislature, the declaration of war must be signed within 30 days.

IV. Both the Monarch and the Prime Minister must signed the declaration of war, indicating their joint consent.

V. If the legislature does not give consent, or either the PM or Monarch do not sign, any declaration of war is to be considered invalid.

VI. All requests and votes under this Article are made in secret, and leaking their existence to a third party shall be considered treason.

((I'm gratified you both reworded yours to change crime to treason like mine said ))

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

Gentlemen, a thought has occurred to me. Do we need to formally declare war if we are declared on? If the answer is yes, should there be provisions for the declaration of wars while in extreme circumstances, say if we are in an interregnum or if Parliament has been dissolved pending an election?

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large