Edge of Europe - A Belgian Interactive AAR

[Scrapknight]

De Graaf Proposal: Aye
deVelde Proposal: Abstain

I would like to see alternatives to the de Velde proposal, if any, before giving my consent, but it will likely pass regardless, so it ought to be all right.

Don't forget, gentlemen, to support the Loewen Proposal!

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

Gentlemen, why is there such a racket going on? What's next? Someone firing a gun? ((Edited, I missed the actual Khrushchev moment.))

De Velde Provision for the Incapability of the Monarch: No. This proposal contains far too many potential problems for my tastes. What do we do in the event of an intransigent 40% of the Upper House who might profit from the chaos of denying a regency? There are no provisions regarding the selection of doctors providing the diagnosis. Surely there should be much more regular monitoring of the monarch's condition than once every two years. Are we to be stuck with a regency if the monarch regains his senses two weeks into it?
De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the Judiciary: Yes, but I have my reservations about the lack of language about having a formal head of the Supreme Court and the mandated wording of "King" of the Belgians.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

 

[ThunderHawk3]

The Constitutional Convention of 1833, Day 3-5, Part 1​

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Day 3 saw the opening of debate on the legislature and continued discussion of the monarch of Belgium. The delegates to the Constitutional Convention reached new levels of exhaustion. Some had been working since the convention began two days previously. Over the next few days, delegates would come and go at odd hours. In contrast to the enthusiastic energy of the first day, many would be seen sleeping in their chairs, having finally succumb to sleep. The Belgian and international press waited, excited, outside to interview delegates about the progress of the convention. News of the Brabant Structure of Government article and the establishment of Belgium as a Constitutional Monarchy fueled speculation about the convention's choice of monarch.

1. The Royal Palace at Laeken, the Palace Presumptive of the King of Belgium​

In reality, of course, the convention had not chosen a monarch. Sébastien Delcroix, the Bishop of Brabant, proposed a "short list" of candidates for the Belgian throne, consisting of just four men who Delcroix described as "faithful men of noble birth and honorable standing, fit to become the King of Belgium" (or so the papers reported - whether the bishop actually said this or not is a matter of scholarly debate). The Delcroix List of Candidates had four names: Prince Leopold of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Saxony; Prince Louis d’Orléans, Duke of Nemours; Auguste de Beauharnais, Duke of Leuchtenberg; Archduke Charles von Habsburg-Lorraine, Duke of Teschen.

Each man had objections against him and points in his favor. Louis, Duke of Nemours, had support among the liberals but nationalists remained concerned that his nomination would make Belgium seem a French puppet in the eyes of the world, and many opposed a French monarch as a matter of principle. Auguste de Beauharnais was similarly both favored and opposed for his Napoleonic connections. Archduke Charles von Habsburg-Lorraine, something of a dark horse among the nominees, had a reputation as an absolutist and invoked the memory of Austrian rule in the Low Countries. Leopold of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha was seen as a compromise candidate who would satisfy nationalists, but the church objected to him because he was not a Catholic.

And so the list might have remained, had not Pierre-Claude de España, the Arlonian delegate, made another suggestion. Late on the night of the second day, while racking his brains and flipping through the indices of aristocracy of the Catholic nations of Europe - Portugal, Spain, and France, to begin with - his mind fell on Italy and he remembered the name of a lesser-known Italian count he had encountered on a visit to Switzerland. This count had left a lasting impression on De España for his rejection of absolutism, his military service, and his intelligence. His name was Camillo Benso Count of Cavour, Isolabella, and Leri, and the following day, De España petitioned that he be added to the list.

Delcroix hesitated, fearing that the Count of Cavour was too low born to be King of the Belgians, but after urging from his colleague, the Bishop agreed to add Benso to his short list. At the urging of quite another quarter - the absolutist Steinbeck-Antonov, Delcroix also added the Grand Duke Michael Pavlovich, Duke of Russia, a favorite among the small absolutist faction who wanted to see the unshakable aristocracy of the Czars brought to Belgium. The Bishop of Brabant last added an option for a domestic candidate, and these seven choices made up the list. This - as well as Daret's proposal for a ranked voting system of three choices, were voted on day 3 and passed into the constitution on day 5.

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Player Actions Needed:
Nothing new. Second part incoming.

 

[ThunderHawk3]

The Constitutional Convention of 1833, Day 3-5, Part 2​

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After the passage of the Merode Executive Proposal, little progress was made on laying down the framework for a Belgian legislature. As one delegate put it, "there are as many ideas as stars in the sky." While the Structure of Government Article had slated a bicameral legislature, with an upper house and a lower house, many disagreed about how these houses should be organized, elected, and empowered. Eventually, debate came to be centered on the composition of the upper house. Some said it should be appointed by the PM, others elected, others appointed by the King. Proposals were drafted and proposed throughout the day by Galler, Savarin, De Velde, and Van Cock, but none were revised so much as that of Willem Loewen, the Mayor of Antwerp. He went through six revisions the first day and three the second. The ninth draft of his proposal, which split the appointments of the Senate between the King and PM and forced each to approve the other's appointments, emerged as the consensus and was put to a vote.

Though it enjoyed an early lead on the night of the fourth day, on the fifth day of the convention the balance shifted. Conservatives took objection to a provision guaranteeing universal male suffrage for the election of the lower house and began to vote against it. Loewen, who was convinced that his proposal had been an acceptable consensus, wished to withdraw the draft and bring a new tenth revision to a vote, but discovered he couldn't as it would contravene the agenda. Dissuaded from withdrawing the proposal by his colleagues, Loewen spent the day slumped in a chair in the back rooms, nearly sick with worry over the fate of his Legislative Article. His hysteria supposedly reached its greatest height at midday, with the vote nearly tied when he began to curse the conservatives, the agenda, and the convention.

Then Wilhelm Vanderhoof walked back in.

Vanderhoof had not been seen since he'd proposed the abolition of political parties in Belgium the previous day, having been called away to attend to some business matters. On his re-entry to the chamber, he put a new article on the docket and then began to vote, first voting yea for Loewen's proposal, then nay (tying the vote), then abstained. On the last occasion, he yawned theatrically and announced he would be retiring to his chambers due to fatigue and invited other delegates to find him there, stood, and exited the convention hall.

Eleven people - led by Damseaux, delegate from Charleroi, rose to follow him. When he returned an hour later, he changed his vote to yea, and rather ominously, the liberal caucus had rather ominously started addressing Vanderhoof as "His August Presence." A subsequent liberal surge gave Loewen's proposal a comfortable margin as the convention moved into its next day. The significance of this back room politicking was not lost on the other quarters of the convention. Steinbeck-Antonov, the imperialist delegate, demanded the floor and began to hurl abuse at the liberals who'd allowed the Loewen proposal to gain the upper hand while banging his shoe on the table. Rumors that a pistol had been fired remained unconfirmed.

Meanwhile, the revised Joint Bill of Rights was re-introduced and enjoyed generally strong support, as did the Belgian Citizenship Provision - both had been drafted by Daret and Delcroix to one extent or another. Debate regarding other rights remained unresolved, however. When the religious delegations began to request special rights for the clergy, liberal factions shot back demanding the right to conscript clergymen. Muted arguments between Delcroix, Frans van Buskirk, Aerts, and Daret continued into the night.

By the end of the fifth day, only a De Velde Provision for the Incapability of the Monarch and De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the Judiciary had been brought to a vote, and the Legislative Language Article - authored by Galler - had been denied unanimous consent by Bishop Louis Merode of Liège.

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Player Actions Needed:
Continue voting on the [post=15784461]Loewen Parliament Proposal - Ninth Revision[/post], the [post=15786315]Belgian Citizenship Provision V3[/post], the [post=15786225]Joint Bill of Rights V4[/post], the [post=15785067]De Velde Provision for the Incapability of the Monarch[/post], and
[post=15788523]De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the Judiciary[/post].

Sample Ballot:

Loewen Parliament Proposal: Yes/No/Abstain
Belgian Citizenship Provision: Yes/No/Abstain
Joint Bill of Rights V4: Yes/No/Abstain
De Velde Provision for the Incapability of the Monarch: Yes/No/Abstain
De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the Judiciary: Yes/No/Abstain

 

[ThunderHawk3]

Day 6 at the convention has now begun.​

The topic for the day is: The Military, The Church, and Taxation (including Religion and War Powers)

 

[ThunderHawk3]

New tally. ((Quuuaddruple post! Sorry about that.))

[post=15784528]Loewen Parliament Proposal - Ninth Revision[/post] (Ends 8:00 PM PST 7/15)
Yes: 14
No: 10
Abstain: 0

[post=15786315]Belgian Citizenship Provision V3[/post] (Ends 9:00 AM PST 7/16)
Yes: 19
No: 1
Abstain: 0

[post=15786225]Joint Bill of Rights V4[/post] (Ends 9:00 AM PST 7/16)
Yes: 15
No: 5
Abstain: 0

[post=15785067]De Velde Provision for the Incapability of the Monarch[/post] (Ends 11:30 PM PST 7/16)
Yes: 14
No: 3
Abstain: 2

[post=15788523]De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the Judiciary[/post]
Yes: 5
No: 0
Abstain: 1

Here are the day 5 proposals. Day 5 has already ended. All these proposals listed below will be voted on at the end of the convention as per convention rules.

Spoiler

[post=15784877]Van Buskirk's Proposal on the Special Rights of the Church and Clergy[/post]

[post=15788291]Aerts Judiciary Article V2[/post]

[post=15784972]Aerts Article for Impeachment and Justice of Goverment Officials Revision 1[/post]

[post=15785248]Galler Judiciary Article[/post]

[post=15786265]Brabant Proposal for the Fair Allotment of Rights to the Clergy, Revision 1[/post]

[post=15786340]Van Den Brucke Social Classes of Belgium[/post]

[post=15786150]Van Den Brucke Belgian Concession of Rights[/post]

[post=15786727]Vanderhoof Article Regarding Press and Slander[/post]

 

[Otto of england]

Gentlemen, why is there such a racket going on? What's next? Someone firing a gun? ((Edited, I missed the actual Khrushchev moment.))

De Velde Provision for the Incapability of the Monarch: No. This proposal contains far too many potential problems for my tastes. What do we do in the event of an intransigent 40% of the Upper House who might profit from the chaos of denying a regency? There are no provisions regarding the selection of doctors providing the diagnosis. Surely there should be much more regular monitoring of the monarch's condition than once every two years. Are we to be stuck with a regency if the monarch regains his senses two weeks into it?
De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the Judiciary: Yes, but I have my reservations about the lack of language about having a formal head of the Supreme Court and the mandated wording of "King" of the Belgians.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

The doctors obviously will be the best in the country and the first ten available on the same day are to come.
The reason why I made two year so the monarch has to prove he is capable of ruling for that time so that we dont re admit a king who looked sane but wasnt. Its also assumed liked for every insane or incapable person there would be constant doctors monitorig the condition of the monarch - I didnt think that would be needed to be spelt out.

Since the upper house will likely be full of honorable and capable men in signifcant quantity I highly doubt they would go against the monarch in this case, anyway I fail to see how any one could profit from it.

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

 

[Scrapknight]

Gentlemen, while midnight may be early by the standards of this convention, I must retire for the evening. I must rise early to discuss some business. Before I do, I would like to direct my colleagues to my Armed Forces of Belgium Proposal, which I shall amend to match the constitutional articles we have already passed and reintroduce it tomorrow. I shall leave several copies on my desk for you to peruse. I ask that you discuss the article and make suggestions as to how it could be improved as the day goes on. Good night, delegates.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?701473-Edge-of-Europe-A-Belgian-Interactive-AAR/page14&p=15770576#post15770576

 

[Plutonium95]

Gentlemen, while midnight may be early by the standards of this convention, I must retire for the evening. I must rise early to discuss some business. Before I do, I would like to direct my colleagues to my Armed Forces of Belgium Proposal, which I shall amend to match the constitutional articles we have already passed and reintroduce it tomorrow. I shall leave several copies on my desk for you to peruse. I ask that you discuss the article and make suggestions as to how it could be improved as the day goes on. Good night, delegates.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?701473-Edge-of-Europe-A-Belgian-Interactive-AAR/page14&p=15770576#post15770576

This is certainly a well thought out proposal, but I think we must decide how much we wish to see the military outlined in the constitution and how much we wish to leave up to flexible legislation.

I must leave my thoughts at that, I have a meeting with my Chief Operating Officer to discuss business matters, and I am already running late. Farewell for now.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[Tapscott]

((Is there a way for us to conduct an investigation into corruption/bribery? Seems like the Liberals have sold Ghent to Vanderhoof.))

 

[ThunderHawk3]

((Is there a way for us to conduct an investigation into corruption/bribery? Seems like the Liberals have sold Ghent to Vanderhoof.))

I think they just pledged to support one of his proposals at the convention vote, which is just politics and not corruption/bribery - but you'd have to inquire with him.

 

[Dadarian]

((Is there a way for us to conduct an investigation into corruption/bribery? Seems like the Liberals have sold Ghent to Vanderhoof.))

((They've done no such thing, besides you can't prove anything, and there's no judiciary yet))

 

[ThunderHawk3]

((They've done no such thing, besides you can't prove anything, and there's no judiciary yet))

((Irony. Better get a judiciary up and running.))

 

[Somberg]

De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the Judiciary: Aye

~ Willem Loewen, Mayor of and Delegate from Antwerp

 

[Tapscott]

I think they just pledged to support one of his proposals at the convention vote, which is just politics and not corruption/bribery - but you'd have to inquire with him.

((They've done no such thing, besides you can't prove anything, and there's no judiciary yet))

((Irony. Better get a judiciary up and running.))

((I would believe you Dadrian, but you then had to say I "can't prove anything" which convinces me something has indeed happened! So once we get a judicary up and running we can launch an investigation I assume?))

 

[atomicsoda]

De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the Judiciary: Yes

I withdraw the Galler Judicial Article from consideration

((There are no corruption laws on the books. So anything is legal at this point. ))

 

[Tapscott]

De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the Judiciary: Yes

I withdraw the Galler Judicial Article from consideration

((There are no corruption laws on the books. So anything is legal at this point. ))

((Hmm, if that is true, I think I better hire goons to attack and harass all my opponents! ))

 

[Fingon888]

((Hmm, if that is true, I think I better hire goons to attack and harass all my opponents! ))

((Why do you think I have threatened military intervention OOC sometimes.))

 

[ThunderHawk3]

((Hmm, if that is true, I think I better hire goons to attack and harass all my opponents! ))

((Why do you think I have threatened military intervention OOC sometimes.))

Please don't launch attacks on other players at the convention >.>

((That part comes later.))

And with that I bid you good night. I leave Belgium in your hands.

 

[Fingon888]

Please don't launch attacks on other players at the convention >.>

((That part comes later.))

And with that I bid you good night. I leave Belgium in your hands.

((I honestly won't do anything. Unless you guys elect that Austrian bastard. ))